Lag, and why does it exist? - An old topic in the wrong place.n00b me!

[lobo]

Ok, here is, as the description suggests, an old topic in possibly the wrong place. Maybe under the #### section? Maybe under the "Old Topic" section, i don't know, YOU be the judge.

First, before I start, i really quite like this game. It is an innovative idea, and one that deserves no small amount of congratulation for not only its inception but also its execution.

Next, I would also like to say that, as much as I like it, this game really is quite terrible.

"Oh!" You cry! "But TymApp MADE this game! How dare you come here and criticise! Why don't you just leave, leave and never come back!"
Fair enough. He did make this game, and what right do I have to criticise it? None except the right of the consumer, I guess, which mostly is a fairly large right (less so when the product in question is free, but nonetheless an important right - after all, Tmy and co. didn't design this game just because they wanted practice in web pages).

I know I know, he has lots of things on his plate - spiderman, his life, etc etc. All very good - my own opinion, for what its worth, is, however, that he is wasting time on spiderman - time that would be better used to re-design or reimplement some functions/features to reduce the CRAZY amount of lag in this game.

Mabye it is just me and my aussie broadband cable. Maybe, in this whole forum, I am the only one who doesn't bother with the vs series because the lag is inexcusably high, and I have no satisfaction whatsoever in playing it. Maybe it is just me who, while finding that the practice mode does have less lag, this reduction isn't enough to make the gameplay amazing, or even comfortable. Sure, there are no "freezes" and onslaught never appears behind me, or above me, BUT the game just doesn't flow smoothly enough.

Hell, maybe it is my 500mHz 128 Mb Ram RivaTnT2 IS to slow to properly play this game at a decent fps in a screen larger than the default - tho why, if I dl an emu and run THAT, xmen VS sf runs fine full screen is, then, beyond me.

But if not, if my experience isn't isolated, if my inability to run this game nicely at a decent screen size isn't isolated, can someone answer the question, why, then, are these problems present?

Why, when we can all happily play amazing, 3D graphics games and complexe strategy games, and have truckloads of people running all over the screen - why the heck can't this game run smoothly?
It can't be because of the depth of this game, can it? Because I refuse to believe this game needs more processing power then say, Quake III, which happily runs on my system.

So look, at 2am Aussie time, the night before my internet engineering exam (I can't get to sleep! AAAAAAAAAAAH!!) can someone placate the #### (who STILL wants to be made a #### again, thankyou very much, where #### is N E W B I E), and answer these questions?

And Tmy, please, there must be some aspect of the engine, some function that can be improved to reduce lag somewhere... if there isn't, then perhaps a more dedicated server would be good (if unaffordable). But if there is, I would, again, in my diminished capacity, really recommend that you put your xmvsSf time into fixing the lag, and not making some more bells and whistles that will, while amuse us at first, ultimately detract from the experience that people have on this site.

Ok, I am going to go to bed now, I really want to sleep! There are some 500 sheep milling around my room (god, if I was a kiwi, I would be in heaven!)) that are asking to be counted!

Cheers
Lobo

PS Wow, long message, huh?

[TarkanX]

the power of your comp, the connection you have, the distance you are from another, and the program the game maker uses depends on lag.

[Scorponok]

<font color="blue">click here (http://www.vgmfusion.com/senshuk/home/articles/2warticle1.html)

[fear tetsuo]

2000-dont even close this thread yet. This is actually a good post even though it has been brought up a few times. I know u wanna look like a good mod, but dont close this yet.

Well i did "click here" and read the lag explanation.
"At least 90% of all your attacks that appear to hit are just misses, and thus everyone fights out of sync for the majority of the time. This out of sync fighting creates problems with how two screens will interpret a fight and thus cause lag. The thing that causes this is quickly dodging or blocking an attack. How often does your screen actually show your opponent dodge or block an attack? Rarely. And when you miss your opponent on their screen but hit them on your screen, it will cause problems.." WTF????? 90% dont go through??? I didnt know it was that much. But lobo does bring up good points. Why can quake( like a 300 or 400 mb game file) run smoothly but this 6 ot 7 mb game cant???? This is gonna sound mean but if u really want ppl to keep rturning to this game u gotta get rid of lag first. Putting in new things makes us forget about the lag for a little bit, but in the end u cant play this game because of the intense lag. I play this game on mame and the only lag i experience is some skipping with someone who has a ping of like 600 who lives in another continent. Get rid of lag, then add new things. I am sure more people will then contribute to your funds once lag in gone.

[akuma_forever]

Ok, here is, as the description suggests, an old topic in possibly the wrong place. Maybe under the #### section? Maybe under the "Old Topic" section, i don't know, YOU be the judge.

First, before I start, i really quite like this game. It is an innovative idea, and one that deserves no small amount of congratulation for not only its inception but also its execution.

Next, I would also like to say that, as much as I like it, this game really is quite terrible.

"Oh!" You cry! "But TymApp MADE this game! How dare you come here and criticise! Why don't you just leave, leave and never come back!"
Fair enough. He did make this game, and what right do I have to criticise it? None except the right of the consumer, I guess, which mostly is a fairly large right (less so when the product in question is free, but nonetheless an important right - after all, Tmy and co. didn't design this game just because they wanted practice in web pages).

I know I know, he has lots of things on his plate - spiderman, his life, etc etc. All very good - my own opinion, for what its worth, is, however, that he is wasting time on spiderman - time that would be better used to re-design or reimplement some functions/features to reduce the CRAZY amount of lag in this game.

Mabye it is just me and my aussie broadband cable. Maybe, in this whole forum, I am the only one who doesn't bother with the vs series because the lag is inexcusably high, and I have no satisfaction whatsoever in playing it. Maybe it is just me who, while finding that the practice mode does have less lag, this reduction isn't enough to make the gameplay amazing, or even comfortable. Sure, there are no "freezes" and onslaught never appears behind me, or above me, BUT the game just doesn't flow smoothly enough.

Hell, maybe it is my 500mHz 128 Mb Ram RivaTnT2 IS to slow to properly play this game at a decent fps in a screen larger than the default - tho why, if I dl an emu and run THAT, xmen VS sf runs fine full screen is, then, beyond me.

But if not, if my experience isn't isolated, if my inability to run this game nicely at a decent screen size isn't isolated, can someone answer the question, why, then, are these problems present?

Why, when we can all happily play amazing, 3D graphics games and complexe strategy games, and have truckloads of people running all over the screen - why the heck can't this game run smoothly?
It can't be because of the depth of this game, can it? Because I refuse to believe this game needs more processing power then say, Quake III, which happily runs on my system.

So look, at 2am Aussie time, the night before my internet engineering exam (I can't get to sleep! AAAAAAAAAAAH!!) can someone placate the #### (who STILL wants to be made a #### again, thankyou very much, where #### is N E W B I E), and answer these questions?

And Tmy, please, there must be some aspect of the engine, some function that can be improved to reduce lag somewhere... if there isn't, then perhaps a more dedicated server would be good (if unaffordable). But if there is, I would, again, in my diminished capacity, really recommend that you put your xmvsSf time into fixing the lag, and not making some more bells and whistles that will, while amuse us at first, ultimately detract from the experience that people have on this site.

Ok, I am going to go to bed now, I really want to sleep! There are some 500 sheep milling around my room (god, if I was a kiwi, I would be in heaven!)) that are asking to be counted!

Cheers
Lobo

PS Wow, long message, huh?
ahh,lobo are you a salesperson or something?in my opinion *COUGHCOUGH* spiderman may own all other characters....and that lobo,you will have to wait and see to find out... :biggrin:

[TMyApp]

see.. you "may" think that this post is "valid" and brings up "a good point".. but in reality... (as always) it is NOTHING but pointless bitching from someone who is "new"...

1st off, i just like to say that in total over 6 months (from the last year and a half) have been spent on JUST trying to improve the lag... and if u ever played 0.1a, u'd KNOW that we improved x100+ during this time...

.. now.. the "big" argument... "why does Quake2/3 runs @ 100+ fps on my system, and yet this game runs @ 15fps with a ping of 3000+ ??"

for one... Quake3 is a $300k+ (USD) engine developed by one of the best game develpers in the world...

so now u'r gonna say "oh.. that makes sence... u'r just some loser who made a crappy engine cause u dont knwo what u'r doing"

the answer to that is: "no"...

let me explain... XvsSF "engine" is a lot like "Half-Life" engine... while each created a brand new product on their own, @ the CORE of the game is ANOTHER engine made by SOMEONE ELSE ....

for "Half-Life" .. it was Quake2 .. for XvsSF .. it is "Macromedia Shockwave"

Quake2 was ment to run on u'r desktop, utilizing all the resources it needs to create a lag-free, multiplayer FPS experience...

"Macromedia Shockwave" was ment to run INSIDE your BROWSER.. with LIMITED resources, in order to create interactive presentations (and maybe pong)... :biggrin:

to get us back on track... this has been asked and ANSWERED what seems like a million times b4... and now.. i'm just plain sick of it... :biggrin:

so from now on... i'll say this: if you don't like the game.. either leave, or make your own that is better ... (for some reason 90% of the new people i talk to here think they can actually do that)... and if u can't, then search the globe to find ANYONE who HAS made a better REAL TIME... MULTIPLAYER... fighting game... that runs INSIDE the browser... using the Macromedia Shockwave engine

until then... u can either spend time searching/reading the forum to find out "why things are the way they are now".. or... not complain about a FREE game which costs you NOTHING !!! :biggrin:

there u have it folks...

plz dont' flood this thread with q's like "then why use Shockwave in the first place ??" because all of that has been answered b4 as well...

lobo: Well... he is working on it. If only you'd been here back in the "old times". Even in December 2001, lag was a lot worse then now. I see people recovering off of attacks almost like you never hit them, ping is way down, and I have yet to see that "infinite super" again.

I think the reason everyone says the old versions had less lag are because the recovery speed for after you hit someone took a lot longer (which would be more lag), but appeared less because it was easier to hit them constantly, even though your moves wouldn't go through or inflict damage.

As opposed to now, some of your moves might go through/hit them (even though a lot don't), but since the recovery time after being hit is so much faster, when they're doing the same thing to you (kickin' your arse on their side), it rebounds so quickly they'll start hitting you almost like you wern't hitting them at all.

But TMyApp is aware of this... and is working on lag on a semi-constant basis. It's the hardest thing to get rid of since all games have lag... and internet games have it the worst.

If you're sick of lag... the best way to remedy it is either:

1) Turn background on, turn the music on, use dial-up, never host games. That way you'll get well accomadated to the causes/effects of lag, and will make you a better player (even though you'll lose... A LOT).

or...

2) Turn background off, turn music off, us a dsl/cable connection, always host your games (no quick games, only host games). That way you'll win a lot, experience a lot less lag then your adversary, and become a worse player since you won't be able to deal with lag when you're using a dial up and fighting on a join game.

Anyways... I think I got off track somewhere there. I can't give you the best explaination of it... only TMyApp containst that capacity.

fear_tetsuo: Well, when I first read the topic title I was planning on closing it... but when I read the post, it showed lobo actually has some thought process going on there instead of the usual "What is lag, and someone should fix it."

90% of the moves not going through may not be that way for everyone. Like I've said before... I use dial-up, and can tell when I'm fighting someone who doesn't use it (their character flat out moves faster, I apparently re-appear on their screen faster then on mine.. etc).

And to add to that fact.. notice when that was made? The game has changed quite a bit since then, and my latest games have been closer to 70% of my moves not going through. I can guess it's that way for most people... but it is getting better. Those fights "back in the day" where nothing went through (and it took your opponent forever to re-appear to their correct position) are quickly dieng out.



Edited By 2000warrior on Nov. 17 2002 at 15:02

[DX Zero]

I have no satisfaction whatsoever in playing it. Maybe it is just me who, while finding that the practice mode does have less lag, this reduction isn't enough to make the gameplay amazing, or even comfortable. Sure, there are no "freezes" and onslaught never appears behind me, or above me, BUT the game just doesn't flow smoothly enough.
I know what you mean..

[Squall87]

2) Turn background off, turn music off, us a dsl/cable connection, always host your games (no quick games, only host games). That way you'll win a lot, experience a lot less lag then your adversary, and become a worse player since you won't be able to deal with lag when you're using a dial up and fighting on a join game.

I use that on a 56K. O_o! I could never join a game nor accept a challenge, only host, is that because I have the background off and the music down to listin to my own music? If that is, then I'll turn it off for this lame attempt at having less FrPS.

[SSJKarma]

i won't say anything new, still it will be said diferently to say the very same thing !

first: COMERCIAL GAMES, are made with C/C++, ASM that are LANGUAGE that ARE MADE especialy to work with the hardware of your computer and all this directly to it ! meaning they are MADE FOR THAT PURPOSE of developping good GAMES or APPLICATIONS.

SHOCKWAVE: thou it was developped to do the same, use a very not user-friendly language to programs things ! meaning it has very limited potential that other language like c/c++ and ASM doesn't have !

that's why OPTIMIZATION aren't anymore possible then what tmyapp is already making !

second: let me tell you this, why doe's your BATTLEFIELD 1942 isn't going 100% FPS on your little 500mhz ? the same answer as this game dude ! this game require more then the minimum your using ! i know that, i used to play with the very same thing has you !

as for the BROADBAND connection thing, i want to tell you that it is pretty not changing anything about the actual LAG while you play. even thou it will still reduce lag a little, lag is produce ENTERELY ON INTERNET, not on your computer and not by YOUR modem but by the TIME IT TAKES to REACH the OTHER. that is why even KAILLERA, QUAKE 3 ARENA and ALL other GAMES like that have also much lag ! but you seem not to see it as your computer runs the graphics smoothly !

third: hope you like that explanation even thou it was the very same things as all the other in here !

fourth: TRY TO KNOW YOUR FACTS BEFORE BITCHING !

[Gotenks13]

Your posts are getting worse than QUIETKILLER's...

I have experienced way too much lag in my life on this game...but I still play it. It's much too often that I lose, and don't let me lose to a cocky ####...I'll get really pissed, and they'll bring up the fact that they won, but it wouldn't be because of skill, and a whole argument would start.

Lag affects a lot of people, but it seems to affect me the most. I know this isn't anywhere near true, but I can't win a match for $1,000,000 nowadays. This is simply because of lag. Clan battles, tourney's, or anything else would just ruin my, or my clan's record. However, I still fight.

It may be rare that I win (more scarce than a Shinkuu Hadouken going through normal mode), this game is still one of the best games I've played...

You could give some people any explanation of lag you want, but they will continue to act the way they do. I think that everyone who plays this game has the right to say, "It ain't my fault." It really isn't. You "usually" have nothing to do with lag (unless you have all those programs on your comp...), so, you can blame the comps for your loss...and note the usually.

That's all I have for now...

[lobo]

Ok, this is going to take a little time to answer...



i won't say anything new, still it will be said diferently to say the very same thing !

##1##
first: COMERCIAL GAMES, are made with C/C++, ASM that are LANGUAGE that ARE MADE especialy to work with the hardware of your computer and all this directly to it ! meaning they are MADE FOR THAT PURPOSE of developping good GAMES or APPLICATIONS.

SHOCKWAVE: thou it was developped to do the same, use a very not user-friendly language to programs things ! meaning it has very limited potential that other language like c/c++ and ASM doesn't have !

##1.1##
that's why OPTIMIZATION aren't anymore possible then what tmyapp is already making !

##2##
second: let me tell you this, why doe's your BATTLEFIELD 1942 isn't going 100% FPS on your little 500mhz ? the same answer as this game dude ! this game require more then the minimum your using ! i know that, i used to play with the very same thing has you !

##2.1##
as for the BROADBAND connection thing, i want to tell you that it is pretty not changing anything about the actual LAG while you play. even thou it will still reduce lag a little, lag is produce ENTERELY ON INTERNET, not on your computer and not by YOUR modem but by the TIME IT TAKES to REACH the OTHER. that is why even KAILLERA, QUAKE 3 ARENA and ALL other GAMES like that have also much lag ! but you seem not to see it as your computer runs the graphics smoothly !

third: hope you like that explanation even thou it was the very same things as all the other in here !

fourth: TRY TO KNOW YOUR FACTS BEFORE BITCHING!

1.Ok, the whole multimedia thing never occured to me. Stupid, I know, but there you are.

1.1.I have to disagree. I am sorry, i don't care how gifted a programmer you are, it is very very VERY rare to say that your code is so darn good, you can't optimize it further. I'm not saying TMy is a lazy sod who works as hard as my nan, but I do hav ea problem with claiming that what we have now has no room for optimisation.

2.Yeah, I can't run the really groovey NOLF2 Demo on my computer without large problems. I get the concept of the CPU not being fast enough. However, in your re-iteration of what has already been said, you seem to have missed the point that this game possibly shouldn't have those problems.

2.1.So, according to you, I can play QuakeIII etc on a dialup, and have a lag comparable to broadband? Rubbish.



Ok, now onto the response from Tmy...
so from now on... i'll say this: if you don't like the game.. either leave, or make your own that is better ... (for some reason 90% of the new people i talk to here think they can actually do that)... and if u can't, then search the globe to find ANYONE who HAS made a better REAL TIME... MULTIPLAYER... fighting game... that runs INSIDE the browser... using the Macromedia Shockwave engine

until then... u can either spend time searching/reading the forum to find out "why things are the way they are now".. or... not complain about a FREE game which costs you NOTHING !!! :biggrin:

there u have it folks...

plz dont' flood this thread with q's like "then why use Shockwave in the first place ??" because all of that has been answered b4 as well...

Ok, first off the bat, I am glad you pointed out the Macromedia/Shockwave problem. I never thought of that, althought it does make sense now.

Next, i don't have a whole lot of time, as i have another exam tomorrow... i am posting to just keep this topic rolling. So, sorry that i can't do a deep search of the previous posts (although there aren't many, well, none that i could find in my admittedly brief search of "shockwave" that explain why you chose it) nor can I look up the scalability of shockwave.

And no, of course I can't whip up a better version of this game anytime soon, and without much of graphics training, I doubt I could whip one up in the forseeable future.

But I am somewhat disappointed that you took such a harsh stance against this topic, Tmy. I am not doing this to prove, in some perverted way, that I am a better programmer, or even a comparable programmer to you.
I am not.
I am not writing this post, nor taking some valuable time out of my day just to bitch and moan. I really have many many better things to do than that.
I am taking this time out to give you something which I perceive to be quite valuable. An open, honest opinion that points out flaws. I never posted this with any malice or hate. I posted this to try and help this game become the game that you deserve to be known for. A game that is new, affordable, and, most importantly, fun.

So please don't look on this as a
[complaint] about a FREE game which costs you NOTHING!!!
Look on it as some one telling you that, yes, this is a great idea. And yes, there is a large scope on the internet FOR this idea. But while you are nearly there, while you have faithfully duplicated the graphics and moves, while you have added your own odds and ends to make this a similar but different experience, you have overlooked the single most important aspect of, and I would go so far as to say ANY, game. That being gameplay.

The game runs slow and, sadly, this is going to push alot of newcomers and SF fans away from the game. So arm your guns, break out your spades and answer this question:
"Why Shockwave?"
If the shockwave is going to be an eternal sore point for this game, and we will have to wait 5~10 years before the advanced broadband capabilities arrive to make a better game, then you should really consider re-writing this game in a different fashion. Make it a dl version, even, do whatever you need! If the lag could be overcome, I am happy to say I would be looking to fail all my exams as I could not tear myself away.

Ok, that's all again, folks!
Cheers
Lobo

[DX Zero]

i think what lobos trying to say, its not all about lag..
see, if you play it in practice, see how the game is just like street fighter 2 with hyper moves..
in the vs. series, there were more realistic combos, recovery time, better dashes to combos, etc.

i think thats what he meant by improvement in gameplay

[akuma_forever]

ya know... i wish i could delete topics... (but i'll settle for VIP) :biggrin:

[QUIET_KILLER]

[quote:post_uid11="Gotenks13"]Your posts are getting worse than QUIETKILLER's...[/quote:post_uid11]
[color=red:post_uid11]HmMm....Ahem I am going to take.
That as a compliment :eek: :([/color:post_uid11]

[SSJKarma]

first:
you do not seems to realise that you are MORE then BITCHING here !
i mean this...

STOP MAKING DAMN CHARACTER AND FINISH THE DAMN THING ON RIGHT NOW !

that's exactly what you are saying to tmyapp now.
next for the LAG !
do know that SHOCKWAVE even thou i never coded with it. is very different then any othe LANGUAGE used to make any other commercial games ! and believe me, even Q3A has lag on broadband ! that was my point !

EXPLANATION OF LAG (2nd time)
*** <--- this is your computer
*& <--- this is your modem (cable or dialup)
|
|
|
*& <--- ISP MODEM (Dual T3 or more)
*** <--- ISP
*& <--- ISP MODEM 2 (Dual T3 or more)
|
|
|
*& <--- XMvsSF online modem
*** <--- XMvsSF online web server

now you see all those "|" THEY ARE LAG !!!!!!!!
it has nothing to do with your connection or modem it has all have to do with the time it takes to reach the destination. your data could take more then 1 second sometime to reach its target and come back to you with the result !

FACT:
it is a fact that even on cable the WHOLE web page your looking will not LOAD ENTERELY withing HALF of a SECOND.

sorry for your sorry ass but loading a simple 30k on a cable modem takes more then half a second sometimes because of WEB SERVER TRAFFICS.

now if you don't understand LAG with this then DON'T FLAME ANYMORE !
there will always be lag on any GAME including COMERCIALZED ONE !

second:
optimization, never perfect ? that's true ! BUT HAVE YOU CONSIDER THAT TMYAPP HAS BEEN DOING THIS FROM DAY ONE ?
have you even played version before 2.0a ? if not then you cannot even know what tmyapp has gone thru just to bring you this !

i say CLOSE that DAMN TOPIC has LOBO really don't know what he is taking about in here !
and also because all i see is BITCHING about this game, i think we can all say we had enough of this kind of bitching in XMvsSF life !

[princevegetam]

actually, this raises a good point

Tmyapp, why are you coding using macromedia shockwave? Why don't you develop a engine using C++ or something better that enables us to play this game on our computers and not on a server? Won't that decrease the lag? And if you are putting this game on a server so that we can access it from anywhere, anytime, then why don't you develop the engine using flash or java(which is moe powerful than shockwave)?

[SSJKarma]

vegetam:
shockwave = the player
flash = the coding
putting them together = Macromedia shockwave game !

but yeah, nice question anyway...
why FLASH and not any other language like java or others ?

[princevegetam]

huh? isn't flash and shockwave different? isn't flash played on a "flash player"? doesn't shockwave have its own programming language?

[TMyApp]

shockwave & flash are 100% dif and have NOTHING to do with eachother...

in any case... this thread reached the limits of "this has been asked over and over again for the last year and a half"...