Human evolution from a scientific stantpoint - Scientific debate, not a religious one

[TarkanX]

Really? I was always under the impression that even if you cannot consciously recall a memory, that all memories are stored in the subconscious. Thus the idea of hypnotherapy.....when one cannot conjure a memory no matter how hard they try, that hypnosis could pry into the subconscious and bring the memory forward. I could be mistaken, but if that was the case then hypnotherapy would indeed make sense, and that's what I've been told over the years.

Well, if you use hypnosis, then yes, you can recover the forgotten memories, but memory by itself (without the use of hypnosis) is sort of like that disease (where memory detirirorates(sp?)) Once the memory starts to fade, it's hard to get back, unless there is some medication for it.

But it's hard to bring back memories of people in their first 2 years of their life, especially when they aren't challenge/challeneged enough in any fundamental study. It's hard to say exactly how much of the subconscious we use though, and what it exactly is.

You ever see that chart at the doctor's office? The one that determines if someone is overweight going by a height/weight ratio (called BMI...Body Mass Index)? According to that chart, both Dave Batista and Mark Calloway are horribly overweight, yet their body fat ratios are maybe 15% and under (20% body fat is considered borderline overweight). I myself am 6'0" and weigh 220 lbs....according to my BMI, I am considered to be "obese." However, according to my body fat ratio, I am 22% body fat....my ideal body weight would be 211 lbs. However, according to BMI, I would still be borderline overweight, which makes no sense. So I don't think we're anywhere near coming close to being able to determine a perfect height/weight ratio, due to varrying physiques and physical performance abilities.

Yeah, those charts count usually the average weight for that respective height. So basically, a very healthy weightlifter would be considered overweight and possibly even obese (for some reason, I don't know). And even though Tight Ends are healthier than most of the people with a height to mass ratio that follows the chart, they are still classified as unhealthy. They should probably negate the chart as a whole, and put an asterisk so people won't have to be confused about it.


[quote]Most likely, unless whatever gene that controls the strength of our immune system is altered...either via natural evolution or scientific experiments. The reasons these ####acterias continue to plague us is because of the fact that our immune systems are becoming stronger. Therefore, the bacteria and viruses continue to mutate and evolve to try and get around our defenses. So unless we can create a perfect immune system (kind of like wolver

[blanka09]

Bravo ppl bravo... reading the posts here.. all I can say is, this is going to be interesting..

Okay.. from Joe

I believe so. Personally, telekinesis and more importantly, telepathy, have always intrigued me, even before *-men. I remember reading Stephen King's "Firestarter" and saying to myself "wow, that girl can start fires just by thinking about it. That's so cool." Personally, I believe that telepathy and telekinesis are indeed possible mental abilities that humans may be able to acquire in the future via evolution/morphological changes. I've heard theories that say that SOME scientists believe that there is some lobe in the front of the brain that COULD be responsible for telekinetic/pathic potential.

First off, your theory on telepathy is far fetched. Although the human brain has evolved to stunning heights, it would take more than just the physical to get us to a level where psionic abilities can be fully achieved. For telekinesis to become a mental ability you are infact stating that the brain has to reach a level where it can actually communicate with its surroundings. The thought of that alone, not only excites me but makes me shiver.. then again, its possibility is nothing more than a logical fallacy. Why?? It's almost impossible. I say almost because.. with humans.. you never know! :biggrin:

Now think of this.. what is motion.. the movement of a particle.
Newton in his first law of motion stated that a body would continue in its present motion or remain at rest until an external force is acted upon by it. I hope I got that right.. Don't have much time to research on it right now. Anyway, for the brain to habilitate telekinesis and actually produce motion, the so-called untapped potential in our medula oblogota has to be transformed to kinetic energy.. which in turn does not seem possible. However I'm open to criticism.. and if anyone can tell me how on earth or heaven it is possible for us to become psionic or psychic.. so to say.

Our skin is used to protect the insides of our body, but we know it's not that tough, so will we be able to one day have skin as tough as diamond? Will our bones be so strong that it will never become sore or break? Will our eyes be so clear that we'll be able to see all the bacteria surfacing around the air? How fast will be able to run, how high will we be able to jump? How far can we hear and smell? Do we even have to eat? Post your opinions."

I'll refer back to Nantuko's predictions of the past.. You said that our bodies do not need to evolve anymore, for we have developed a sort of equilibrium with our environment and quick evolution doesn't seem plausible.. except a slow and gradual evolution of our cranial.. or better put mental abilities.
If indeed this was a misquote.. I stand corrected.. but I don't for a second think our body would become any stronger than it is due to evolution.. no matter how slow or gradual the process might seem :biggrin:

However on the lad's opinion about the neurons in our brains.. I must say that they are pure fact!
For if you ever come into contact with a blind person... whose blindness wasn't as a result of aging or cell gradual degradation.. but an accident so to say. Then you'll notice that he/she has a keen sense of smell and touch. Thus the neurons responsible for sight have been transferred so to say, to aid the other sensory organs of the human.. as sight is more or less impossible at that time.

In conclusion, I'd like to state that the whole 10% of our brain usage is actually a myth! And indeed we do use all of our brain. But to think?? I think not. The brain is divided into various regions that each have it's own use in the control of the body as a whole. Funny enough, like Tarkan, I've got to do more research in order to save myself the stupidity of posting nothing but logical fallacies :biggrin:

-- nuff said! :biggrin:

TarkanX

Well, if you use hypnosis, then yes, you can recover the forgotten memories, but memory by itself (without the use of hypnosis) is sort of like that disease (where memory detirirorates(sp?)) Once the memory starts to fade, it's hard to get back, unless there is some medication for it.
But it's hard to bring back memories of people in their first 2 years of their life, especially when they aren't challenge/challeneged enough in any fundamental study. It's hard to say exactly how much of the subconscious we use though, and what it exactly is.

Alzheimer's Disease....where the brain undergoes rapid memory loss. However, I don't believe that a memory can simply "fade" or "disappear." They're stored in the subconscious, and that's what gets tapped into with hypnosis. When someone undergoes a traumatic experience and becomes "afflicted" with amnesia, his or her memories do not "fade away," but fade out of the conscious. The only way to recover it would be either time or hypnosis. It wouldn't make sense that memories "fade away," because then that would mean that it would be impossible to remember them. You would have to try and "recreate" the memory, but that's not possible unless some form of mental residue remains in order to rebuild the memory. Therefore, that's why I believe that all memories are stored in the subconscious....whether or not you're "motivated" enough to remember a memory, it's still stored in the subconscious, and can indeed be accessed via various techniques, hypnosis being one of them.

Now I have a question for all of you. presently, Stephen Hawking, is the smartest human. He is handicapped from the neck-down, and I commented on how when the neurons from the body function don't work, they go to another part of the brain (which is one reason why he is so smart), now let's say I make my body not work well (by injection), is this a closer step to the next stage? As you said, Joe, that the next stage is when our physical attributes decline and are mental attributes rise.

That would indeed be what I was talking about, but would not be evolution, as it does not affect the genes or chromosomes. It would be, however a morphological change. You would not be of a different specie of human, but you would merely be different. In other words, it is not a character trait that can be passed on from generation to generation. It would be a next step in a way, but not via evolution.

blanka09
Now think of this.. what is motion.. the movement of a particle.
Newton in his first law of motion stated that a body would continue in its present motion or remain at rest until an external force is acted upon by it. I hope I got that right.. Don't have much time to research on it right now. Anyway, for the brain to habilitate telekinesis and actually produce motion, the so-called untapped potential in our medula oblogota has to be transformed to kinetic energy.. which in turn does not seem possible. However I'm open to criticism.. and if anyone can tell me how on earth or heaven it is possible for us to become psionic or psychic.. so to say.

This is the way I see it:

We are already able to manipulate matter using our physical abilities. My brain sends orders to my arm that makes me lift my arm, extend my hand, and grasp a ball of clay, then I can grip the ball of clay to crush it using my fingers. All are activities of the body controlled by the brain.

Now, my theory is rather sketchy, but it should still make sense. WHAT IF the brain was able to send these types of signals OUTSIDE the body? To create say...a field of energy produced by the brain. So instead of the brain sending a signal to the arm, hand and fingers in order to manipulate an object, the brain sends the signals to the object itself, and the energy is capable of physical contact.

For example, look at Star Wars. When Luke uses the Force, he extends his hand towards the object and concentrates, and the object can be levitated. WHAT IF human telekinesis was similar? That the brain's signals would give an impression on the outside environment that the arm, hand and fingers were longer. Therefore, even though you may not think you're physically touching an object 5 feet away from you, your brain is making it happen by using energy and tricking the environment into "thinking" that it's actually being manipulated.

I'm not quite informed enough to be able to say things that actually make sense, but it's a sketchy theory though.

I'll refer back to Nantuko's predictions of the past.. You said that our bodies do not need to evolve anymore, for we have developed a sort of equilibrium with our environment and quick evolution doesn't seem plausible.. except a slow and gradual evolution of our cranial.. or better put mental abilities.
If indeed this was a misquote.. I stand corrected.. but I don't for a second think our body would become any stronger than it is due to evolution.. no matter how slow or gradual the process might seem

It wasn't a misquote, simply a slight misinterpretation of information. True, that I theorize that physical evolution has slowed, I mean as in an evolution of our body structures. For example, earlier forms of pre-human primates had tails, but they were no longer needed. Therefore, over time, we evolved physical bodies without tails. Now, various physical features such as texture of the skin, enhancement of our five senses, things like that, could indeed be part of human "advancement," simply because they could possibly be results of environmental changes that force our bodies to change. For instance, growing amounts of pollution may cause our lungs to change in order to become better filters of the air around us. The changes will be morphological at first, but may end up evolving into genetic traits that can be passed on to create a better form of human being.

We havn't FULLY adapted to our environment, I apologize for not elaborating on that. For the MOST PART we have, but there are still aspects of our environment that are harmful and we are not used to, that could still warrant slight physical changes to our anatomy in order to adapt.

[(ShinKu_Ryu)]

Yo joe....if you really look at this the way im looking ??? we are both right and we are both wrong...Well really i dont believe in evolution...

Anyway what im trying to say is that some scientist's say that there was evolution and some say there was'nt.so your taking side on those who agree and im on those who are saying there was not evolution...so we will keep talking about this and no one will win....... :alien:

[blanka09]

Now, my theory is rather sketchy, but it should still make sense. WHAT IF the brain was able to send these types of signals OUTSIDE the body? To create say...a field of energy produced by the brain. So instead of the brain sending a signal to the arm, hand and fingers in order to manipulate an object, the brain sends the signals to the object itself, and the energy is capable of physical contact

Well, since you kindly stated that your theory was sketchy, I wouldn't term it as a logical fallacy.. as I usually do.. *cougH* .. but I can read a little bit of sense to your theory. But this is the way I see it. You said that if the brain could send these signals outside the body... but you forget one thing my friend.. Theses signals aren't the air. There are neurons that carry these signals that the brain uses to control the body to the arm and other parts of the body. These neurons are in fact matter.. they have weight and occupy space.. thus, they cannot be transferred from inside the body to outside the body.

The brain is a very special organ that it is... but it's abilities are limited. What it does, is work in a mechanical manner. The only thing that differentiates us as humans from machines is the ability to make sometimes.. stupid decisions. A machine.. wouldn't say.. if it could drive, want to cross a red light; except it has been programeed otherwhise. But as a human might be in a hurry and would want to run it... and would try as much as possible to do that. Thus our brain is in our will.. There are in fact voluntary and involuntary actions that our brains perform and the voluntary ones are way more than the involuntary ones.. Thus I'd have to conclude that if the human body as a whole reaches the level of telepathy or ever has psionic abilities (i love that word.. :biggrin: ) then the brain wouldn't be the focal organ that would control it.

Therefore, even though you may not think you're physically touching an object 5 feet away from you, your brain is making it happen by using energy and tricking the environment into "thinking" that it's actually being manipulated.

Forgive me if I attack ur theories head on like it's something to be proven soon.. but I just don't see that happening.. Energy is neither created nor destroyed.. but it can be transferred from one form to another.. First law of thermodynamics.. now there has to be a permeable or non permeable tract for energy to be converted.. It can't just go from one point to another the way you've described it. You talk of the untapped potential energy of the brain... well fine. I don't know what inside this block head of mine.. but even if there is potential energy.. How on earth or even jupiter would it be transferred to kinetic energy. You can manipulate urself into thinking that the object would move.. but according to Newton's first law of motion.. that object would remain in its state of Inertia!

We havn't FULLY adapted to our environment, I apologize for not elaborating on that. For the MOST PART we have, but there are still aspects of our environment that are harmful and we are not used to, that could still warrant slight physical changes to our anatomy in order to adapt

True.. but so is the shark and the whale. They aren't living the perfect life.. so to say in the ocean.. Sure they're well adapted.. there are still somethings that'll hurt them.. that doesn't mean they'll evolve again. Who knows.. maybe the body wasn't made to reach perfection.. We might have gone far and evolved much.. but what if we weren't supposed to be perfect. Also note the fact that the environment is a parameter that defines at what level the body would work or evolve.. optimum effeciency so to say.. and with the ever changing environment we live in.. it's hard to note what kind of evolving our body would go through in order to counter that sort of change. :biggrin:

-- may the biggrin be with you. :biggrin:

--nuff said! :biggrin:

[TarkanX]

I found some good info about the brain on these websites, especially howstuffworks.com (the most reliable info website there is).

http://science.howstuffworks.com/hypnosis.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/esp.htm

http://www.howstuffworks.com/brain.htm

http://www.techtv.com/bigthin....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/callfor....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/callfor....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/screens....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/screens....00.html



Edited By TarkanX on Mar. 27 2004 at 03:01

[TarkanX]

Here's another article about what the future will be

http://web.media.mit.edu/ minsky/pap...m.inherit.html

Edit: Some more (This gets even better and better)


http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

http://www.theness.com/articles/brain-nejs0201.html



Edited By TarkanX on Mar. 27 2004 at 03:32

[(ShinKu_Ryu)]

[quoteost_uid0="TarkanX"]I found some good info about the brain on these websites, especially howstuffworks.com (the most reliable info website there is).

http://science.howstuffworks.com/hypnosis.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/esp.htm

http://www.howstuffworks.com/brain.htm

http://www.techtv.com/bigthin....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/callfor....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/callfor....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/screens....00.html

http://www.techtv.com/screens....00.html[/quote]
what does the brain have to do with this topic..?!?! ???

Shinku Ryu
Anyway what im trying to say is that some scientist's say that there was evolution and some say there was'nt.so your taking side on those who agree and im on those who are saying there was not evolution...so we will keep talking about this and no one will win.......

And like I said.....find me some other SCIENTIFIC theories of how human beings developed over millions of years, or some other SCIENTIFIC article on human advancement.

blanka09
Well, since you kindly stated that your theory was sketchy, I wouldn't term it as a logical fallacy.. as I usually do.. *cougH* .. but I can read a little bit of sense to your theory. But this is the way I see it. You said that if the brain could send these signals outside the body... but you forget one thing my friend.. Theses signals aren't the air. There are neurons that carry these signals that the brain uses to control the body to the arm and other parts of the body. These neurons are in fact matter.. they have weight and occupy space.. thus, they cannot be transferred from inside the body to outside the body.

Good point....I've gotta stop making these debate posts at 3 in the morning......

I'll have to think up of some new way to argue my point now.....damn you *shakes fist*

Forgive me if I attack ur theories head on like it's something to be proven soon.. but I just don't see that happening.. Energy is neither created nor destroyed.. but it can be transferred from one form to another.. First law of thermodynamics.. now there has to be a permeable or non permeable tract for energy to be converted.. It can't just go from one point to another the way you've described it. You talk of the untapped potential energy of the brain... well fine. I don't know what inside this block head of mine.. but even if there is potential energy.. How on earth or even jupiter would it be transferred to kinetic energy. You can manipulate urself into thinking that the object would move.. but according to Newton's first law of motion.. that object would remain in its state of Inertia!

I'm not sure how well this would apply, but here goes:

I've heard a couple stories of people who have been admitted to hospitals due to slash marks on their arms and bodies. They were mentally unstable....not to the point of being completely psycho, but a simple instability in the brain....and were claiming that they were being attacked by invisible forces. After doing a psychoanalysis, EEG (or whatever brainscans they did), they determined that there was no "invisible forces." What had happened was that the "victim" believed that he was being attacked to such a degree that the brain actually believed it too, and therefore CAUSED the slash wounds to open on their own, with no outside interference. The brain was tricked into thinking that some invisible force with a knife was attacking, and therefore the body responded as though it was actually happening....the brain caused the body to think that a knife was sliding across the skin, and in turn, the skin sliced open and bled. In The Exorcist, when the words "help me" appeared on the girl's stomach, they said that the brain has the ability to manipulate the body in strange ways....and attacked the idea of her being possessed by saying that the brain could have been TRICKED into thinking that she was possessed and was trying to call for help, and therefore the skin reacted in such a way as to raise up in the form of letters....I will have to try to find more sources on this but I do remember hearing reports of this.

Either way, the premise for my theory is that the brain might be able to manipulate the energy around an object to "trick" the object into "thinking" that it's being manipulated. Just as the brain tricked the skin of the body into thinking it was being sliced open, the brain could possibly "trick" the environment around it, and make the object "think" that it's being lifted up by an outside force, and therefore have the object float in the air, being manipulated by the brain's.....persuasiveness.

True.. but so is the shark and the whale. They aren't living the perfect life.. so to say in the ocean.. Sure they're well adapted.. there are still somethings that'll hurt them.. that doesn't mean they'll evolve again. Who knows.. maybe the body wasn't made to reach perfection.. We might have gone far and evolved much.. but what if we weren't supposed to be perfect. Also note the fact that the environment is a parameter that defines at what level the body would work or evolve.. optimum effeciency so to say.. and with the ever changing environment we live in.. it's hard to note what kind of evolving our body would go through in order to counter that sort of change

Sharks and alligators/crocodiles have remained virtually unchanged for a few hundred million years....it is speculated that they have already reached the pinnacle of their evolutionary status, and have become perfectly adapt to their current environments. Now, there are still things that could harm them, but they are perfectly evolved in order to perform their tasks....hunting. They are the perfect hunters in their environments. Whales, let's say, are the perfect large herbivores....because they have no natural defense mechanisms for themselves (no teeth [Sans the killer whale, really], no method of self defense), they evolved to be very large, and travel in packs usually....thus making it difficult for other sea predators to try and kill them.

Naturally, no creature could possibly evolve to the point where they are completely invulnerable to any and all forms of harm, because that would throw off the balance of natural selection, the food chain, etc. If all fish evolved very tough, shell-like skin equipped with sharp poisonous spines, then it would completely throw off the food chain for all animals above it.

Now, all animals alter their environment in some ways...animal feces on the ground act as fertilizers for plants. Animals use up oxygen and replace it with carbon dioxide, and plants take up carbon dioxide and replace it with oxygen. However, humans are the only creatures that alter our environments to the extent that we do. We don't maintain an equillibrium with our surrounding environment like all other creatures do. The human species is actually not unlike a virus, as Agent Smith said in The Matrix:

The Matrix
I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I've realized that you are not actually mammals. You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively devlops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment. But you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consudmed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what that is? A virus.

Now, I'm not saying that we're actually viruses, but the Wachowski brothers had a good point when they wrote that bit. Us humans are the only creatures that don't have a natural balance with nature...we are constantly changing it and altering it to suit our own needs. As a result, we are constantly causing new problems over the years....new health hazards, risks, etc. Therefore, we need to continue to change in order to survive these risks and problems that we are constantly placing on ourselves. Therefore, our forced evolution might be on a different scale than the rest of the natural world, which doesn't act in such a way as we do.

Shinku Ryu
what does the brain have to do with this topic..?!?!

Becuase one of my theories was that human beings will continue to evolve, but with an emphasis on the mental state. Therefore, if we can understand exactly how the brain works and its highest potential and untapped ability, we may be able to predict the next step in human mental evolution.

[Roll]

This is probably an illusive question to ask while you are all talking of evolution from the past to the present, and their effects... but what about devolution? Is there a chance of devolution happening to humans, or other animals, or organisms of some type? Or is it just a horrid fantasy made into sci-fi movies for thrills and chills?



Edited By Roll on Mar. 27 2004 at 01:59