Db"z" vs sf...pl debate... - Come in and debate...if you dare!

[akuma_forever]

[quoteost_uid0="TarkanX"]No offense.. but this is dumb(remember, no offense). It's hard to get a PL for SF, but what I know is that any SF can beat Mr. Satan, and Videl.


anyways, here are my Freiza saga PL's, they are the most accurate because I put it in a range, so instead of saying a PL of 1,000, and I'm not even sure if its at 1,000, I would say 500-1,500, I would know that it's inbetween those PL's.

(S)-stated in the manga

Raditz fight:
------------
Goku(weights): 334(S)
Goku(no weights): 416(S)
Piccolo(weights): 322(S)
Piccolo(no weights): 408(S)
Raditz: 1,200-1,250(S)
Goku(Kamehameha): 924-1,000(S)
Gohan: 1(S)
Gohan(crying): 710(S)
Gohan(angry): 1,307(S)
Piccolo(1st beam): 1,330(S)
Piccolo(2nd beam): 1,200-1,320


After battle
---------------
Piccolo(weights): 329(S)
Tenshinhan: 250(S)
Krillin: 206(S)
Yamucha: 177(S)
Chaotzu: 130-170
Kamesennin: 139(S)


Saiya-jin fight
---------------
Piccolo(max): 2,400-2,600(leaning on 2,500)
Yamucha(max) 1,250-1,310(leaning on 1,300)
Saibamen(each): 1,200(S)
Krillin(max): 1,400-1,700
Tenshinhan(max): 1,500-1,900
Tenshinhan(one armed kikohou): 2,000-2,300
Chaotzu(max): 1,010-1,100
Gohan: 1,010-1,100
Gohan(masenko): 2,800(S)
Nappa(max): 7,500-8,000
Goku(surpressed): 5,000(S)
Goku(max): 8,100(S)
Gohan(healed): 1,300-1,800
Vegeta: 16,000(S)
Vegeta(powered up): 18,000(S)
Goku(kaio-ken) 16,200(S)
Goku(kaio-ken*2): 16,200(increase of speed)(S)
Goku(kaio-ken*3): 24,000(loss of strength)
Vegeta(Gallic-hou): 24,000
Goku(kaio-ken*3+kamehameha): 24,000
Goku(kaio-ken*4): 24,000-28,000(loss of strength)
Goku(kaio-ken*4+kamehameha): 24,000-28,000
Vegeta(oozaru): 50,000-150,000(lossed strength from battle)
Gohan(oozaru): 5,000-16,000


Freiza saga:
--------------
Gohan: 1,500-2,000
Kuririn: 1,500-2,000
Freiza thugs: 1,100-1,500
Vegeta: 23,000-25,000
Kewie: 18,500-19,000
Dodoria: 21,000
Zaabon: 22,000
Namek warriors: 1,000(S)
Namek W(max): 3,000(S)
Zaabon(monster form): 28,000-30,000
Vegeta(healed against Zaabon in round 1): 30,000
Gohan(old namek power-up): 23,000-25,000
Kuririn(old namek power-up): 20,000-21,000
Gurudo: 1,000-10,000
Rikuum: 30,000-50,000
Baata: 30,000-50,000
Jisu: 30,000-50,000
Goku(surpressed): 5,000(S)
Goku(against Baata, Jisu, and Rikuum): 60,000(S)
Ginyu(using half power): 60,000
goku(max): 90,000(S)
Goku(kaio-ken): 180,000(S)
Ginyu(if at max): 120,000(S)
Ginyu(in Goku's body): 23,000(S)
Gohan(healed from Rikuum fight):27,000-35,000
Kuririn(healed from Rikuum fight): 25,500-27,000
Vegeta(healed from Rikuum fight): 100,000-160,000
Neiru: 42,000(S)
Freiza(form 1, 60%): 318,000
Pikkoro: 43,000-100,000
Vegeta(after rest): 340,000-370,000
Gohan: same PL against Ginyu(in Goku's body)
Kuririn: same PL against Ginyu(in Goku's body)
Freiza(form 1, 70%): 371,000
Freiza(form 1, if at max): 530,000(S)
Freiza(form 2, 60%): 600,000-1,100,000
Gohan(angry at Freiza form 2 attacks): 600,000-1,500,000
Kuririn(healed from Freiza form 2 attacks):30,000-40,000
Gohan(healed from Freiza form 2): 35,000-50,000
Pikkoro(fused with Neiru, wearing weights):500,000-1,100,000
Freiza(form 2, 90%): 900,000-1,500,000
Pikkoro(taking off weights): 900,000-1,650,000
Freiza(form 2, if at max):1,000,000-1,850,000
Freiza(form 3, 60%): 2,000,000-4,000,000
Gohan(angry at Freiza form 3): 1,800,000-3,800,000
Pikkoro(healed from Freiza form 2 attacks): 1,000,000-1,800,000
Freiza(form 3, if at max): 3,400,000-7,000,000


Freiza(form 4, 20%): 4,500,000-20,000,000
Vegeta(healed from Kuririn blast): Even with Freiza form 4 20%
Freiza(form 4, 30%): 6,750,000-30,000,000
Goku(if he used base): 620,000-2,800,000
Goku(kaio-ken*10): 6,200,000-28,000,000
Freiza(form 4, 50%): 11,250,000-50,000,000
Goku(kaio-ken*20, lossed some power): 10,000,000-49,000,000
Freiza(form 4, 70%): 15,750,000-70,000,000
SSJ Goku: Even with Freiza form 4, max
Freiza(form 4, max): 22,500,000-100,000,000[/quote]
tark all i know is that those are toooo powerfull.

frieza-(form 4 MAX) 12,000,000
and ssj goku- (final fighting)18,000,000

those are just some of the examples of correct power levels :alien:

[Nantuko Joe]

tark all i know is that those are toooo powerfull.

frieza-(form 4 MAX) 12,000,000
and ssj goku- (final fighting)18,000,000

those are just some of the examples of correct power levels

Those levels YOU just listed aren't correct. Goku's level is still a tad high. Hell, the only way to get the correct levels is through mathematical calculations and comparisons

Freiza(form 4, 20%): 4,500,000-20,000,000
Vegeta(healed from Kuririn blast): Even with Freiza form 4 20%
Freiza(form 4, 30%): 6,750,000-30,000,000
Goku(if he used base): 620,000-2,800,000
Goku(kaio-ken*10): 6,200,000-28,000,000
Freiza(form 4, 50%): 11,250,000-50,000,000
Goku(kaio-ken*20, lossed some power): 10,000,000-49,000,000
Freiza(form 4, 70%): 15,750,000-70,000,000
SSJ Goku: Even with Freiza form 4, max
Freiza(form 4, max): 22,500,000-100,000,000

Now that akuma brings that up:

Tark, those Furiza levels are ridiculous. Remember that growth percentage chart I gave you in the SFvsDBZ debate? There's NO WAY that according to the recorded power growth of goku that he could have gotten levels even a quarter of the strength you have him at. 70 million and 100 million? Lemme list them again for you.

Goku Vs: Radditsu (w/o weighted clothing): 416
Goku's Kamehameha: 924

Now, we can consider his power level using the Kame Hame Ha as his max power. Now, the next level we have for Goku is while fighting Nappa.

Goku's kamehameha vs Radditsu: 924
Goku vs Nappa: around 8,000
% increase in power: 865%

Now, not counting Kaio-kens during this period, his max was around 8,000. The next level we have for him is on namek.

Goku Vs Nappa: 8,000
Goku on Namek: 90,000
% increase in power: 1,125%

Now, we can't determine the next time Goku maxes out without using the Kaio-ken, because he was using it the entire fight with Furiza. Therefore, the next max level we would have for Goku would be SSJ Goku at his max. Since you have Furiza listed at around 20 million, let's assume that Goku was also at 20 million (they were pretty evenly-matched during the fight.

Goku on Namek: 90,000
SSJ Goku: 20,000,000
% increase in power: 22,200%

22,200%! In about a day! For Goku to increase the 850% to fight Nappa, it took a whole year. To increase the 1,100% increase it took I think a month, while training under extremely harsh conditions (100x earths gravity). Now, for someone to make a 22,200% increase just by being healed and transforming in a day or so seems extremely unrealistic, even compared to normal DBZ growth levels. Better yet, you have Goku maxed at 100,000,000:

Goku on Namek: 90,000
SSJ Goku: 100,000,000
% increase in power: 111,111% increase!

THAT is damn near impossible, even by DBZ standards. There's no way in hell Goku got THAT strong THAT quick.

[TarkanX]

Joe: your PL's are just rip off copies from planet nameks, those arent your PL's.

frieza-(form 4 MAX) 12,000,000
and ssj goku- (final fighting)18,000,000

That is wrong, and those PL's are WAY too low.

Goku's level is still a tad high

lol

Tark, those Furiza levels are ridiculous. Remember that growth percentage chart I gave you in the SFvsDBZ debate? There's NO WAY that according to the recorded power growth of goku that he could have gotten levels even a quarter of the strength you have him at. 70 million and 100 million? Lemme list them again for you.

Yes there is, it has been stated, by the godly Dragon Ball experts that you need at least a 10% advantage at the minimum to be all over your opponent, where your opponent can't get a hit off of you, or only gets a few hits.

70 million and 100 million is Freiza's. His last form percentages were stated. He transformed at 20%, went up to 30% to kill Vegeta, and fight against Goku, went up to 50% to fight against Goku and kaio-ken*20, went to 70%, then went to max. And remember that I put a PL from something to another thing. so even if his PL might not be 100 million which is most likely, I put the range from 22 million - 100 million.

Goku's Kamehameha: 924

Raditz then says he is increasing after saying 924. But Raditz overwhelmed it.

Goku's kamehameha vs Radditsu: 924
Goku vs Nappa: around 8,000
% increase in power: 865%

924 wasn't Goku's max against Raditz, that was just him using dormant ki. Dormant ki is when you can go over your max using some type of special ki manipulation, like Kamehameha. And Goku's max vs. Nappa was "over 8,000. I'd put him at 8,100. Which is an increase of 1947%

Goku Vs Nappa: 8,000
Goku on Namek: 90,000
% increase in power: 1,125%

He was at 90,000 max when he fought Ginyu, he wasn't at 90,000(base level) when he fought Freiza.

Now, we can't determine the next time Goku maxes out without using the Kaio-ken, because he was using it the entire fight with Furiza. Therefore, the next max level we would have for Goku would be SSJ Goku at his max. Since you have Furiza listed at around 20 million, let's assume that Goku was also at 20 million (they were pretty evenly-matched during the fight.

You forgot to put Goku's base level against Freiza, even though he didn't use it.

Goku on Namek: 90,000
SSJ Goku: 20,000,000
% increase in power: 22,200%

22,200%! In about a day! For Goku to increase the 850% to fight Nappa, it took a whole year. To increase the 1,100% increase it took I think a month, while training under extremely harsh conditions (100x earths gravity). Now, for someone to make a 22,200% increase just by being healed and transforming in a day or so seems extremely unrealistic, even compared to normal DBZ growth levels. Better yet, you have Goku maxed at 100,000,000:

I didn't say Goku was at 20 million, I put a range for him, so he's between 22.5 million - 100 million, just like form 4 Freiza at max.

And again you forgot Goku's base level against Freiza which I put at between 620,000-2,800,000. And another thing, when Goku first turned SSJ, it gave him a huge increase. Which is probably at about 35x increase from his base.



You see... this is why I wanted to make a faq, for about DB"Z" power levels.

[princevegetam]

there is no way that any of the fighters had power levels over 100 million before the android saga. and what 20% or 70% are you talking about? where does it say that he had gone through all those stages?

[Nantuko Joe]

70 million and 100 million is Freiza's. His last form percentages were stated. He transformed at 20%, went up to 30% to kill Vegeta, and fight against Goku, went up to 50% to fight against Goku and kaio-ken*20, went to 70%, then went to max. And remember that I put a PL from something to another thing. so even if his PL might not be 100 million which is most likely, I put the range from 22 million - 100 million.

There's no way he got that high. Those levels are WAY too high

he's between 22.5 million - 100 million, just like form 4 Freiza at max

No way hes that high.

SSJ, it gave him a huge increase. Which is probably at about 35x increase from his base.

No way it was that much increse. and even if it was, the final power would be Goku at his max, period! Not powering up with %s like Furiza was doing. Lemme redo my growth charts:

Goku's max "dormant" power vs Radditsu: >924
Goku's max power vs Nappa: 8,100
Type of training in between battles: 10x earth's gravity
% increase: 876%

Goku's max power vs Nappa: 8,100
Goku's max base power vs Ginyu: 90,000
Type of training in between battles: healing from near-death experience, training in 100x earths' gravity
% increase: 1,111%

Goku's max base power vs Ginyu: 90,000
Goku's max base power vs Furiza: 300,000
Type of training in between battles: fighting, healing from near-death experience
% increase: 333%

Goku's max base power vs Furiza: 300,000
SSJ Goku's max power: prolly around 15,000,000
Type of training in between battles: intense fighting, devastation of body by use of the Kaio-ken, Super Saiya-jin Transformation
% increase: 5,000%, or 5x base power

Now, here is a run-down of the entire fight with Furiza

Vegeta: 270,000
Furiza: 270,000
Furiza (if at max): 530,000
Furiza Form 2: 1,060,000
Gohan vs Furiza Form 2: 1,070,600
Piccolo: around 400,000
Piccolo w/Nail, w/weighted clothes: 800,000
Piccolo w/Nail, w/o weights: 1,060,000
Furiza Form 3: 2,180,000
Gohan vs Furiza Form 3: 2,212,700
Furiza Form 4, 25%: 4,360,000
Vegeta (after healed by Dende): 1,350,000
Goku, Kaio-Ken x10: 4,300,500
Furiza Form 4, 50%: 8,720,000
Goku, Kaio-Ken x20: 8,601,000
Furiza Form 4, 75%: 13,080,000
Super Saiya-jin Goku: 15,000,000
Furiza Form 4, 100%: 17,440,000
Super Saiya-jin Goku, Max Power: 18,000,000


I sat in front of this computer with a calculator for an hour figuring these calculations. They're a little closer to your lower power calculations, but I still think your 100 million calcs are way too high.

[TarkanX]

there is no way that any of the fighters had power levels over 100 million before the android saga. and what 20% or 70% are you talking about? where does it say that he had gone through all those stages?

no one is over 100 million. And I'm saying form 4 Freiza's % were:

just transformed: 20%
powered up a bit: 30%
powered up some more: 50%
powered up some more: 70%
powered up to max: 100%

the last 3 are official, but if you do the calculations right, then it's obvious that those were his first 2 %.

Goku's max base power vs Furiza: 300,000

That's pretty low, and many debators would agree.

Vegeta: 270,000
Furiza: 270,000

Freiza should be a bit higher, which is obvious, and I believe Freiza should always be over 50% in all his stages except form 4(true form), and he powered up one frame in the manga, so he should be at 70%.

Furiza Form 2: 1,060,000

Though I agree with this PL, some people(debators) said that Freiza should be at around 1,500,000, but that's why I put a range for form 2 Freiza. Besides Freiza wasn't at max in form 2.

Gohan vs Furiza Form 2: 1,070,600

You put him a tad higher than form 2 Freiza max, which freiza wasn't at max in form 2, so this should be lowered, or whatever...

Piccolo: around 400,000

Way too high for normal Piccolo. Going from 2,500 - between 43,000-100,000 in a few is insane, but 400,000 just pushes it.

Piccolo w/Nail, w/o weights: 1,060,000

Piccolo should be at the same level as form 2 Freiza's max, he was even with form 2 Freiza at around 90% or so...

Furiza Form 3: 2,180,000
Gohan vs Furiza Form 3: 2,212,700
Furiza Form 4, 25%: 4,360,000
Vegeta (after healed by Dende): 1,350,000
Goku, Kaio-Ken x10: 4,300,500
Furiza Form 4, 50%: 8,720,000
Goku, Kaio-Ken x20: 8,601,000
Furiza Form 4, 75%: 13,080,000
Super Saiya-jin Goku: 15,000,000
Furiza Form 4, 100%: 17,440,000
Super Saiya-jin Goku, Max Power: 18,000,000

I'll do these later, maybe....

[darksamuria]

Kid Buu is weaker than the buu combined with everyone. You find this out because Goku SS3 didn't stand a chance against buu at first. Kid buu is buu when everyone was freed from his body. Goku was then strong enough to take on buu at the kid buu state. Goku then finished off buu with his spirt bomb.

[TarkanX]

[quoteost_uid0="darksamuria"]Kid Buu is weaker than the buu combined with everyone. You find this out because Goku SS3 didn't stand a chance against buu at first. Kid buu is buu when everyone was freed from his body. Goku was then strong enough to take on buu at the kid buu state. Goku then finished off buu with his spirt bomb. [/quote]
Thanks for the info but, I knew this 3 years ago.

[Gotenks13]

lol...Hey, I have a question. Do stores still sell the DBZ magna? I'm pretty sure, but I never see any in Wal-Mart. Only a couple of months ago, I had just realized that knew much less about DBZ than I thought. I can only count on the show, which really limits my knowledge. I really want to rival you guys in these debates, but I can't do that in a debate that I created.

I remember Nantuko Joe saying that a fully charged Shinkuu Hadouken can only destroy a car. Goku could do that the first time he tried the Kamehameha. Maybe that could help youwith SF PLs...but if you still can't do it, then forget SF...

[Nantuko Joe]

[quoteost_uid0="Gotenks13"]I remember Nantuko Joe saying that a fully charged Shinkuu Hadouken can only destroy a car. Goku could do that the first time he tried the Kamehameha. Maybe that could help youwith SF PLs...but if you still can't do it, then forget SF...[/quote]
Actually, I'm pretty Tarkan said that

And Tarkan, sorry about leaving in the middle of the debate last nite, my parents pulled up, and my mom would have thrown a fit to see me on her comp at like 11:30 at night. Here is when I'm on AIM most:

Monday: until 9:00 AM
Tuesday: until 12:00 noon
Wednesday: until 9:00 AM, then from like 11:30 AM-1:45 PM
Thursday: until 12:00 noon
Friday: from like 1-2:45 PM

if I can get on any other time, I'll try to, but those are ususally the times I can get on.

Also, I was up until like 4:30 in the morning this morning with my Mac and a calculator figuring out the power levels from AFTER our debate ended (but you're prolly gonna find something wrong with them. Anyway, here the yare:

Radditsu Saga
Radditsu: 1,200 (s)
Farmer: 5 (s)
Piccolo (w/weights): 322 (s)
Piccolo (w/o weights): 408 (s)
Piccolo's 1st Makankosappo: 1,330
Piccolo's 2nd Makankosappo: 1,200-1,300
Goku (w/weights): 334 (s)
Goku (w/o weights): 416 (s)
Goku's Kamehameha: 924 (s)-1,000
Gohan: 1 (s)
Gohan crying: 1,307 (s)

After Battle
Muten Roshi: 139 (s)
Kuririn: 206 (s)
Tenshinhan: 250 (s)
Yamucha: 177 (s)
Piccolo w/weights: 329 (s)
Chaotzu: 130-150

Saiya-jin Saga
Yamucha: 1,300
Chaozu: 1,010-1,100
Tenshinhan: 1,500
-One-armed Kikoho: 2,100
Kuririn: 1,700
Piccolo: 2,500-3,000
Gohan: 1,100
-Masenko: 2,800 (s)
-Healed: 1,800
-Ozourou: 18,000
Saibamen: 1,200 ea
Goku: 5,000
-Powered up: 8,100
-Kaio-ken: 16,200
-Kaio-ken x2: 16,200 (increase in speed)
-Kaio-ken x3: 24,000 (power lowered due to stress)
-Kaio-ken x4: 28,000 (power lowered due to stress)
Nappa: 7,500
Vegeta: 16,000
-Powered up: 18,000
-Gallic Haou: 24,000
-Ozourou: 100,000-150,000
-vs Ozourou Gohan: 10,000-15,000 (power lowered due to stress)

Furiza Saga
Gohan: 1,500-2,000
-After power up: 18,000-20,000
-after healed: 23,000
Kuririn: 1,500-2,000
-power up: 17,000-19,000
-healed: 21,000
Furiza's Men: around 1,200
Kui: 18,500
Dudoria: 21,000
Zaabon: 22,500
-Monster: 28,000-30,000
Vegeta: 24,000
-After Heal: 30,000-32,000
-max vs Rikum: 35,000-37,000
-Healed vs Jisu: 80,000

vs Ginyus
Rikum: 40,000
Baata: 45,000
Jisu: 50,000
Gerudo: 5,000-10,000
Ginyu: 120,000
-in Goku's Body: 23,000
Goku: 5,000 (supressed)
-vs Jisu and Baata: 60,000
-Max: 90,000
-Kaio-ken: 180,000

vs Furiza
Vegeta: 371,000
Furiza: 371,000
Furiza (if at max): 530,000
-Form 2: 1,060,000
Gohan: 1,219,000
Piccolo: 45,000
-w/Nail and weights: 870,000
-w/Nail and w/o weights: 1,060,000
Furiza Form 3: 2,120,000
Gohan: 2,438,000
Furiza Form 4, 25%: 4,240,000

*this is where the disagreement is prolly gonna start

Goku vs Furiza
Goku's base: 400,000
Furiza 25%: 4,240,000
Goku kkx10: 4,000,000
Furiza 50%: 8,480,000
Goku kkx20: 8,000,000
Furiza 75%: 12,272,000
SSJ Goku: 14,000,000
Furiza 100%: 16,961,000
SSJ Goku Max: 19,000,000

Trunks Saga
Kold: 17,000,000
Furiza Bot: 20,000,000
Trunks: 5 (supressed)
-SSJ: 23,500,000
SSJ Goku: 27,000,000

Android Saga
SSJ Goku: 33,000,000
-sick: <10,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 30,000,000
SSJ Vegeta: 35,000,000
Piccolo: 8,000,000
Gohan's Max: 3,300,000
Kuririn: 230,000,000
Tenshinhan: 270,000,000
Yamucha: 58,500
Chaozu: 9,900
Android 20: 2,000,000
-19: 10,000,000
-18: 48,000,000
17: 50,000,000
16: 55,000,000
Piccolo w/Kami: 50,000,000
Cell: 50,000,000
-absorb humans: 55,000,000
-Semi Perfect: 88,000,000
-Perfect: 120,000,000
Tenshinhans' Kikoho: 80,000,000
SSJ Vegeta (after ROSAT): 105,000,000
SSJ Trunks (after ROSAT): 90,000,000
-USSJ: 110,000,000
-USSJ Max: 120,000,000

Cell Game
SSJ GOku: 115,000,000
SSJ Vegeta: 110,000,000
USSJ Trunks: 120,000,000
SSJ Gohan: 115,500,000
A. 16: 55,000,000
Perfect Cell: 120,000,000
Cell Jr.s: 120,000,000 each
SSJ2 Gohan: 308,000,000
Super Perfect Cell: 200,000,000
-Semi Perfect: 88,000,000
-after Regen: 338,800,000
SSJ2 Gohan's Kamehameha: 340,000,000

Buu Saga part 1
Piccolo: 100,000,000
SSJ Gohan: 11,545,000
-SSJ2: 290,017,000
Goten: 1,000,000
-SSJ: 35,000,000
Trunks: 1,142,000
-SSJ: 40,000,000
SSJ2 Goku: 319,956,000
SSJ2 Vegeta: 309,946,000
A. 18: 60,000,000
Kaioshin: 70,000,000
Kibito: 65,000,000
Yamu: 10,000,000
Supopovich: 10,000,000
Babidi: 5,000-10,000
Dabura: 300,000,000
Ma-Jinn Buu: 850,000,000
SSJ2 Ma-jin Vegeta: 320,000,000

Buu Saga Part 2
SSJ3 Goku: 831,885,600
Ma-Jin Buu (Evil Buu absorb Fat Buu): 900,000,000
Gotenks: 214,200,000
-SSJ: 750,000,000
-Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack: 910,000,000
-SSJ3: 900,000,000
Gohan w/Z Sword: 637,400,000
-Mystic: 1,247,900,000
Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks & Piccolo): 1,566,600,000
Super Buu (Trunks, Goten, & Piccolo): 967,427,000
Kaiobito: 1,350,000,000
Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks, Goten, & Gohan): 1,817,427,000
Vegetto: 2,076,600,000
-SSJ2: 5,399,160,000
Super Buu (Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan, & SSJ2 Vegetto): 3,201,427,200
Kid Buu: 283,334,000
Vegeta: 2,895,099 (stressed)
-SSJ2: 263,444,000
Goku: 2,988,600 (stressed)
-SSJ2: 271,962,600
-Genki Dama: 3,000,000,000