[TarkanX]

What I meant by "disappear" was when the ppl around him no longer see him. I did not mean to imply that he can cloak so no one can see him.

I understand

I'm not sure if it says it in the manga, but in the anime the Rou Dai Kaioshin says that Mystic would allow Gohan to surpass his limits. Therefore, he's using more than his max power

It doesn't say that in the manga, the rou dai kaioshin says you can't turn SSJ anymore because it's useless, and you've reached your max potential so you can't get any stronger.

Where does it say that the Androids from the present are twice as strong as the ones from the future? Here's how I see it:

It doesn't say it, I just used theories using proportions(going into math here), and compared them with the present time. There also have been theories like, Trunks said the Androids of the present time are much stronger than Trunks's dimension.

The Androids from the present are the same power as the ones from the future.

Wrong, Trunks stated that the ones in the present are stronger than the future time. How can this be proven you say? Trunks can't sense the androids ki, but we compare it by how Trunks get beaten badly.

Trunks was beaten in his future badly just before he left to earth to fight the other present androids. But he was even messed up even more. Therefore the androids in the present is stronger than the future androids.


[quote]
Now, we can't say that Trunks is as powerful as Goku, because Gohan keeps saying during the Trunks Special that he wishes his father was there, because then they could beat the androids. Either way, we have to start off back in the eps. when Furiza and King Kold came to earth.[quote]

Gohan in the manga from the future does say he wishes Goku was here with them, but then after that, he says "you get us out of jams when we are on the brink of losing". Even if Goku was alive in the future, they still wouldn't beat the androids. But they'd stand much more of a chance.

They could win if they double teamed one android, and went for the other, but the other android will ust come in the fight.

= around 25,000,000 (he received a power-up from the cyborg parts, and prolly trained on his way to earth)
King Kold = around 30,000,000 (Tenshinhan said he felt Furiza's ki, but also another more powerful ki)

King Kold should be weaker than form 2 Freiza when Form 2 Freiza is almost at max. The reason why is because King Kold said on the shp that him and Freiza fought before, and Freiza had to go to form to and almost at max just to beat his father. So I'd put King Kold at 800,000. This was stated in the manga.

Now, when Trunks arrived, he easily took out Furiza and King Kold. Therefore:

Trunks = around 35,000,000

Trunks isn't way stronger than Freiza, even though Freiza didn't hit Trunks, he did make Trunks a LITTLE bit winded from the fight. I'd put him at 30 million from the PL you listed.

Remember how Trunks tried to hit Goku with his sword, but Goku merely deflected it? That would mean that Goku had a higher pl than trunks, therefore making it

Goku didn't deflect it, he just blocked it with his finger, so Goku would be at 35 -40 million.

Now, let's go back to Trunks Future. If Trunks is around 35,000,000, then Gohan would be around 60-65 million.

You mean SSJ Trunks, and SSJ Trunks had a hard time with non-SSJ Gohan with one arm toying with SSJ Trunks, and Trunks was sweating vigorously. I'd put non-SSJ Gohan with one arm in your terms at 70 million, and SSJ Gohan with one arm at 210 million, or whatever you see SSJ's power increases the non-SSJ.

Now, if you watch the Special, you would see signs that Gohan is stronger than either of the Androids and could take the both if it was one-on-one battle. However, the Androids fight together, which is why Gohan dies. Therefore,

the specials don't count. And in the manga, android 17 was using 50% of his power, and was almost even with SSJ Gohan with one arm, but android 17 still had the edge.

Gohan = around 65,000,000
Android 17 = around 60,000,000 (because he's prolly weaker than Gohan all by himself)
Android 18 = around 55,000,000(because it states that 18 is a little weaker than 17.

Again that 65 million should be non-SSJ Gohans power level, and android 17 is higher than Gohan, the anime just screwed that up. And Android 17 and Android 18 don't have a huge difference. Just put them one million to two million apart, and android 17 like you said is stronger.

That sounds a little more reasonable to me, in terms of power levels growth-wise. After all, it does not seem possible that Vegeta, who was killed by Furiza (who only has a pl of less than 12 million at the time), could come back and train enough to make mincemeat out of a being even stronger than the androids if they were at over 300 million (rememeber, he pounds on Imperfect Cell for a period of time).

Freiza at form 4 max wasn't at a PL of 12 million or lower, he's much higher than that, probably around 20 million, but he's even with SSJ Goku when he's at max. Vegeta is only 5 times weaker than Freiza's form 4 is at max. since Freiza was at 20% when he transformed.

Vegeta never fought imperfect Cell, he fought against Semi-Perfect Cell, and Vegeta got the time room training for a year which really upped his power by a huge margin.

It also wouldn't make sense that a HUMAN (tenshinhan) could hold off a being with a power level of over 300 million, nonetheless hold off Imperfect Cell for a very long time. To me, my levels sound more reasonable.

Tenshinhan held Semi-Perfect Cell, because of the Shin Kikohou. It's a VERY powerful move, but strains the body really fast out of the opponent. And Tenshinhan's shin kikohou held of Super Buu(with Piccolo, and Gotenks). But Tenshinhan got tired easily and fainted.

Do you really want me to? I can do it right now if you'd like

I don't care, go ahead.

no! I mean as if their attacks are going up against each other, (ie. Goku's Kame Hame Ha versus Vegeta's Gallic Hou during the Saiya-jin saga).

Oro's variable yagyou-dama can go against a really powered up kamehameha.

Oro's tengou stone can go against Piccolo's rapid fireball attack thing or whatever it's called.

That's all i know right now...

by the way what part of the series was the Ryuken attacked used?

That didn't happen in the manga?

No it didn't happen, Form 4 freiza at max was even with SSJ Goku until Freiza got tired because of stress, then Goku laid the beat down on Freiza.

No, what I'm saying is "what good is it to drop someone who can fly out of the sky? If that's the atack -- to pick someone up and drop them so they get hurt when they hit the ground -- then the Z Fighter he uses it against could simply fly away and not fall.

Oro can use the variable kishin riki in the sky as well....

That wouldnt' work. Remember, Furiza did the same thing, but Goku still survived and hit him with it (though a lot of good that did)

Freiza was an idiot, he wasn't even using his full power against Goku, only 70% of it. And Freiza didn't know Goku was doing.

If Goku did throw the Genki-dama at Bison, Bison would just teleport, if he tried to throw it at twelve, twelve would disappear, and Goku can't sense or see him, so he wouldn't know where to throw it. If he's charging it up against Evil Ryu, Evil Ryu would just shun goku satsu him... It won't work against Gill, or Oro since they're good.

, a well-aimed Super Ghost or Shine Shine could cripple the opponent in the fight's first few minutes

But what's well aimed if the opponent keeps on moving that you can't get a good direct attack.

Roll, Goku DID survive. Remember, he was the one who told Dende to wish everyone except Goku and Furiza to earth. When Goku was knocked into the lava, he was prolly down there recovering energy (and maybe making a shield against the heat of the lava), but he did not die

Like I said, the lava part didn't happen, it wasn't in the manga, and Goku can't make a shield around himself.