I feel compelled to make a drawing. You may all marvel at it tomorrow.

What Nantuko Joe says is absolutely true. DBZ movies don't officially happen in the canon storyline, and neither does DBGT. You can argue that it happens in a different time-dimension, like how Mirai Trunks comes from an alternate time dimension, of which there's an infinite amount, but it does not happen in the same dimension as the bulk of DBZ does.

Actually...that makes more sense than me saying they didn't occur at all. After all, it's just that the movie events didn't happen in the DBZ storyline. HOwever, the DBZ storyline events are evident in the movie. Good job, Dan

An interesting Debate on offical DBZ anime an none offical DBGT anime. I'd expect no less if Joe came back. :laugh:

####, no one said that just cause there wasn't a manga made for it, doesn't mean it's not official. it is damn official, it is made by the same ppl who work alongside with akira, and it is made by the same company, you guys are just denying it's official existence cause it wasn't made by akira.

nantuko:
the only thing that proves that the 13th movie can't be placed in the story isn't gohan going SSJ, cause he didn't ! he did HAD the golden aura, but never has his air or eyes changed colors !

but, this movie would only be placed at the total end of DBZ why, because vegeta saved peoples. and he only did at the end of the serie. but then you cannot put it there either. why ? because goku was training UBUU at that time. that's the only thing that proves that the 13th movie can't be placed in the story !

but like vegetam said. you can't deny that they are OIFFICIAL. not to you perhaps, but to most of the people and in REALITY they are. want the proof of that ?

go ask funimation or TOEI itslef. they will answer that GT is OFFICIAL and so are the movies ! and by the way, i reapeat myself again, if you ask them about SSJ4 they will refer to it has SUPER SAIYA-JIN 4 not SUPER LEVEL 4 !

i now will stop arguing until you ask them cause for my part it is untrue that this isn't all official. and i know i am right, cause i know that if i ask, they will tell me the same thing and also tell me that this is all official !

I already told you in that big ass post I made that I AM NOT DENYING ITS EXISTANCE. First off, GT WAS NOT MADE BY THE SAME PPL WHO WORKED ALONGSIDE AKIRA TORIYAMA. The company that made GT was a different company that produced Dragonball and Dragonball Z. That, plus the fact that there is no manga for GT, means that it did not officially occur IN THE DBZ TIMELINE.

In that huge 27-page monster debate started by Tarkan, many of my points were not considered valid because Tarkan said that they did not appear in the manga. When Roll said something about Goku dying when he fell in the lava, Tarkan said that because that scene did not occur in the manga, but rather was an ANIME-ONLY scene, it did not OFFICIALLY OCCUR. When I mentioned Janemba's Bunkai Teleportation as a maneuver, he told me that it doesn't count because it was in a movie, and therefore was not in the manga, and therefore does not count. It did not OFFICIALLY OCCUR. When I mentioned the Trunks Special, he said that the Trunks Special did not occur in the manga, and therefore did not OFFICIALLY OCCUR.

Akira Toriyama wrote the Dragonball Manga Volumes. Everything that is in those volumes are what happened. If there is an event (i.e. a DBZ movie, the Garlic Jr Saga, etc) that was not mentioned in the manga, then it did not OFFICIALLY OCCUR IN THE NORMAL DBZ TIMELINE. Therefore, the movies, the Garlic Jr saga, the Afterlife Saga, and GT did not OFFICIALLY OCCUR IN THE NORMAL DBZ TIMELINE.

If you continue to insist that GT, SSJ4, etc, OFFICIALLY OCCURED because you THINK that the same guys who made GT were the ones who worked with Toriyama on Dragonball, then you can listen to Dan. If you INSIST that they happened, one could say that they happened in a different timeline than the normal timeline. Much like Cell came from a different future and Trunks came from a different future. Both of those futures happened on a different timeline. Therefore, that is why the Androids were stronger in the normal timeline than they were in Trunks' future (timeline). The timelines don't match up.

In this case, yes, GT really did occur. However, it occurred in a different timeline than the normal DBZ timeline, it occurred in a parallel universe or something. But it did NOT occur during the normal DBZ timeline.

I will bet you $100 that if Toriyama wrote a new Dragonball series, he would write it so it would occur immediately after Dragonball Z, and not after Dragonball GT.

yes, it WAS made by the ppl who worked along akira toriyama. they were ppl from bird studio and worked on the dbz series. i did a 8 page report last year on akira toriyama, i have several sources that indicate so.

nantuko: what we are arguing about isn't the story of DBZ and how DBGT SHOULD attach to it ! we are arguing on the fact you say IT ISN'T OFFICIAL !

let me tell you this, it isn't because the story don't follow that it necessarly isn't official. like i said, ask the creators of DBGT and they will tell you that it is SSJ4 not SL4 and they will say that it is OFFICIAL !

example:
the gundam series...
they doesn't follow each other but still, they are officials

the TV show of X-men don't follow the same path as the comic books, but still. will you deny there officialness ?

Street fighter alpha don't follow the same path as regular SF, but still, will you deny that they are official ?

all those don't foloow each other but that don't mean they aren't official !
try an understand a little ! cause right now, i just think you don't even listen to me !

We seem to be talking two different kinds of, "official-ness," here.

Those movies and episodes are official for the ANIME, made official by Bird Studios. The main man Akira Toriyama wrote the Dragonball manga, and thusly those occurences in the anime and all of the manga are official by virtue of the creator himself doing it. The manga is far more official than the anime (events not happening in manga), the movies, and DBGT.

I only feel that Akira Toriyama's type of being official carries far more weight.

And a few points regarding those proofs you tried to use...

The Gundam series all follow the same storyline in the same timeline. Mobile Suit Gundam occured first, then Gundam 0083, and so on. After a certain event which I can't remember, the mode of counting the years was changed, explaining the different method of telling years between earlier Gundam series and series like Gundam Wing. Check major fan sites that list everything chronologically to check my facts there.

Once again different types of, "official-ness," here for X-Men. Does it officially exist because a major company made it? Yes. Is it AS official as those stories done by Marvel themselves? No.

Street Fighter in its entirety has had SO many retroactive changes to the storyline. I read a long-assed document a few months ago fitting every single Street Fighter game's story, and even a few other Capcom game's stories, together into one big story supported by Capcom themselves.

... and I am listening, and I am bringing up counter-points. Just because you present your own piece of an argument does not mean I will be persuaded.

yes, that's what i meant.

yeah...I guess what dan said...

I love starting topics that have NOTHING TO DO WITH MY TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well i guess that was two harsh-NO IT WASNT shut up freakin shoulder angel! :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire:

DAN: i really like the way you putted it. and i say, now you are talking the right way. so the SSJ4 does exist and is OFFICIAL so there IS a more then SSJ, USSJ, SSJ2, USSJ2, SSJ3. so can we agree that SSJ4 DO IS official and doe's exist !

if not then just try and tell me why you can't make it official cause it is official and it is a SSJ level as mentionned by the creators of DBGT.

as for gundam story lines !
go onto the OFFICIALS web sites, such as GUNDAMLOUNGE.com or something like this. and find out that GUNDAM WING is an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE then gundam 0078. by definition i think that means they aren't in the same story line ! same goes for GUNDAM X and GUNDAM GENERATION.

in the nutshell...
the only gundam that follow the story all together is really. Gundam 0079, 0080, 0081. there could be Gundam F71, but i am not sure of that. Gundam V is a sepparate thing for sure since it is 3 ship that forms the gundam and fight for the defense of earth !

try and attach the story of all those together. you'll find it very impossible to do cause they are in separate timeline and universe !

the worst thing is the name they have given to the ONE YEAR WAR (0079) who actually is 3 year, not one !

anyway, i'm all over with that debate. as i am a little short as argument and i have never been a great talker in those.

You can go to pogo and see pics of ssj4.

Listen, Karma, to what I am about to say. It may sound a little confusing.

I will now admit that DBGT and the DBZ movies are all official. However, they are on a different level of official as the series created by Akira Toriyama.

There is only one storyline-timeline: the one that is followed throughout the manga written by Toriyama. Now, along that line, there are many branches from that timeline. On these branches are Mirai no Trunks' future, Seru's (Cell's) future, etc. Now, although those are official--eg. they were created and approved--they are not directly part of the main DBZ storyline-timeline.

Now, GT and the movies are on the same level of officialness that the timeline branches are on. They were officially created and officially produced, but they do not occur on the normal DBZ timeline. Therefore, like Dan said, one might say that these events happened in a different dimension, a different timeline than the events of the main timeline. Much like Mirai no Trunks' future, these events contain/mention stuff that has already happened in the normal DBZ timeline, but the events in the DBZ timeline do not mention these branches.

As an example, I will use Movie #5, which was the first appearance of Kooler. During the movie, many references were made about the Saiya-jins, Goku's defeating Furiza, and Goku going Super Saiya-jin. However, nowhere in the DBZ timeline do any of the characters mention Kooler, the Kooler Tokusentai (Kooler's little band of warriors), or any of the events that happen in the movie. Therefore, the movie did not occur along the normal timeline, but rather on a branch off from that timeline.

Therefore, one could say that because the movie was made and produced, it is official. However, it is not as official as the manga created by Toriyama.

Therefore, the Super Saiya-jin 4 you are referring to is indeed official, but never took place during the normal DBZ timeline, and rather in another dimension, a universe parallel to the DBZ timeline.

yes yes yes! you finally get it! that's what i've been trying to say!

Ok let me throw in my 2 cents and leae. DBGT was only made to promote/ market DB: Final Bout for the Playstation... ;)

anyway...
i was only trying to convince you that SSJ4 do exist and is relative to existing Super saiya-jin level. it was only to answer the question of the guy !

next:
i do agree that things in the movies do are not to be in the real story !
same example as you...
in the 5th movie, goku isn't able to transform at will. that's simply impossible.

1 - he is camping with some friends and his son ! (that couldn't have happenned, unless it was in the 3 years they had to train)
2 - at that time he was already able to go super whenever he wanted to !

the fact that cooler isn't mentionned in the manga isn't a proof that he doesn't exist ! Freeza did say that HIS RACE (meaning he was not alone in this universe) was stronger than any other race existing !

whatever wa in the mirai-no trunks future can be attach to the story, cause it can be placed at anywhere in the story line without modifiing anything ! same goes with the bardock special !

anyway, this debate is over with, since we all agreed on the big thing !


simple question:
if i foolow your reasoning about all that.
your saying that the TV show isn't as officials cause it isn't really what was written in the manga ? simple question !

I KNOW that SSJ4 does exist. But think about it. SSJ4 is a cross breed between oozaru and a normal saiya-jin. SSJ4 doesn't have the "traditional" blond hair and green eyes of a SSJ. So can you truly call SSJ4 a SSJ? ??? Yes, I know it officialy is.. But it's just weird to accept that fact though.. :(

I shall still call it Super Level 4, because of the greater amount of respect I give Akira Toriyama's work, and I happen to know that the form does not have most of the trademark Super Saiyan indicators.

[quote:post_uid0="mastaq"]Ok let me throw in my 2 cents and leae. DBGT was only made to promote/ market DB: Final Bout for the Playstation... ;)[/quote]
LMAO!! it's hardly likely that an entire series was made just to promote some playstation video game

Ever hear of Powerstone? There's an entire series of Powerstone anime episodes to promote that game. Also remember the ill-fated Super Mario Bros. cartoon from way back when? That was made to promote a game, too.

The manga is slightly more official than the anime series, but the Japanese anime series is also more official than the English Dub Series. So, in retrospect, yes.

As Will I.

Yeah, I remember that show! And you remember those live-action bits starring that wrestler...what the hell was his name...oh yeah..Captain Lou Albano? That was the coolest show!

But, back to DBZ...

[quote:post_uid0="Dan Hibiki"]Ever hear of Powerstone? There's an entire series of Powerstone anime episodes to promote that game. Also remember the ill-fated Super Mario Bros. cartoon from way back when? That was made to promote a game, too.[/quote]
:hmmm: well, a lot more work was put into dbgt than mario or powerstone.

I've proven my point... :)