I see....

Yep, I'm almost positive about this, but I have to get that manga to be for sure.

Yeah, but I'll have to check into it.


I remember this from the anime, this never happened, or was never seen.

*weezer yawns*

Vegeta's power level rose drastically because he healed from the damage he took from Rikum. Also, if you watch the anime, after Vegeta and Furiza grasped hands, Furiza was fine, but Vegeta was sweating and breathing heavily, showing that he must have exerted a lot of power and a lot of force against Furiza. Therefore, i'm guessing that Vegeta (after getting healed) was around 80,000 to 100,000 normally, and therefore had a max power of apparently 530,000. After Goku got healed from his fight with Ginyu, I guessed his power at around 300,000 normally, and using Kaio-ken x10 and x20, have Goku at around 3 million and 6 million, respectively.

In Trunks' future, he was almost killed by the androids. He couldn't even score two successful hits. After giving Goku the antidote for the virus, he left to train some more in his future. When he returned, he was still getting beat. I'm going to guess that when Trunks returned to the present to fight the androids, he was about even with Goku (Goku didn't really grow in power during the training period for the Android Saga because he and Piccolo were focused on training Gohan). Even so, Trunks would still be weaker than the androids (according to my calculated levels I listed in my last post).

However, we must assume that because Kold is also a Changeling, that he could also have multiple forms. Therefore, we have no idea what form Kold was at when Furiza beat him, and we have no idea what form Kold was in when he arrived on earth.

All I know is that Tenshinhan states that he felt Furiza's Ki, and also a Ki much stronger than Furiza's.

SSJ Trunks never fought with non-SSJ Gohan with one arm! Watch the special, it was Gohan's death that ALLOWED Trunks to go SSJ in the first place. And after the Furiza saga, we don't even try to calculate non-SSJ power levels because the fighters pretty much always go SSJ for their fights (except for Vegeta Vs. Pui Pui).

Here are my levels for Furiza during the time on Namek:

Furiza Form 1: 530,000
Furiza Form 2: 1,000,000
Furiza Form 3: 2,500,000
Furiza Form 4 (33.3% power): 4 million
Furiza Form 4 (50% power): 6 million
Furiza Form 4 (70% power): 8.4 million
Furiza Form 4 (max power): 12 million.

When Furiza first went form 4, in the english version he says he's using "only 1%" of his power, however, that's bull####. I THINK it is listed in the Daizenshuu (or elsewhere) that he was using like 33% of his power. (If you can show me where it says taht Furiza was at 20% power when he transformed, and I'll believe you.)50% power would be around 6 million, and therefore twice that, for 100% power, would be 12 million. There's no way that Furiza and Goku's power levels were around 20 million. Here's what I got Goku at:

Goku Max Power (vs. Ginyu): 180,000
Goku Base Power (vs. Furiza): 300,000
Goku kaioken x10: 3 million
Goku kaioken x20: 6 million
SSJ Goku: 15 million

Although Furiza seems to be a lot less in power than Goku, the same thing happens as in Piccolo vs. Furiza: Furiza (versus Goku) was faster and more agile, and therefore it appeared that he and Goku were the same (or close) to being the same level.

My mistake.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Joe smacks his forehead</span>

Do you think Oro would expect to drop a Z Fighter from the sky and expect him to NOT fly away and hit the ground?

I said the same thing, using Goku's Shunkan Idou. However, I'm going to say what you said to me: this is a fight. Sooner or later, the opponent's going to have to stop and fight.

We are never introduced to the mothers of any of the full-blooded Saiya-jins.

Bardock, on Planet Meet, killed off Furiza's elites, but Dudoria (the fat pink guy) hit Bardock with a blast and [/b]THOUGHT[/B] he was dead, but Bardock was not. Bardock then got to his pod and flew back to planet vegeta.

Okay okay, Vegetas power rose more than 2x in his fight against Rikum, but he has to be lower than 90,000. Because he was saying so much that Goku at 90,000 was stronger than him. And Vegeta was not in range of form 1 freiza's level. For 1 freiza at max was at 530,000. He wasn't usin his max, and freiza has to be at over 50% of his power in his first 3 forms.


If Goku was at 300,000 for his base which he wasn't, then he used kaio-ken*10, he should've gotten weaker, so he couldn't have been at 6 million for kk*20.

Your getting this PL from the daizenshuu which is wrong(yes toriyama stated it in an interview which you know already). If Goku was at 300,000, even with kaio-ken he wouldn't survive, which brings me to another point.

He didn't get any hits


I wouldn't say Trunks is even with Goku, just a bit weaker, and SSJ Goku wasn't using his max against the android 19. The virus kicked in when he landed on the planet.

Yes your right Goku didn't raise his PL that high, he probably didn't even get a 2x increase.



ARGH!!! WHere do people get changeling from, Freiza and King Kold aren't changelings! their race is unknown.

A lot of people say king kold was at form 2, but if he had forms, why didn't he shows us more, and not coward.

And Tenshinhan doesn't state that, he just says he felt a very strong ki(freiza's) and another by him, but not as strong(king kold).


SSJ Trunks did fight with non-SSJ Gohan with one arm, it was a flash back, I have the color manga to prove it, but it's in japanese, and i need a scanner....

Trunks turned SSJ long before Gohan was killed, and I don't need to watch some anime special if I have the manga, it shows how wrong that Gohan had the upper hand against the 2 androids but faleterd when both attacked. Android 18never fought Gohan, it was only android 17 who fought Gohan which had the upper hand against Gohan, but they were about even.


You got all this from planet namek.com, 530,000 is his max in form 1, and put some percentages from what he's at so I know that you don't think Freiza was at max.

In form 2 at max, Freiza is at 1,060,000, he said he got 2x stronger, put some percentages there too...

In form 3 at max, Freiza should again double his power from form 2, and put his percentages there.

Okay this is where it goes insane... Freiza wasn't using 33.3% of his power, I saw a post from SkullMac saying he just put up a % there that lower than 50%, and higher than 25%.

By the way if Freiza was at 4,000,000, and Goku by your levels using kk*10 was at 3,000,000, then shouldn't of Goku gotten beaten into the ground? They were almost even before freiza went to 50% of his power, Freiza had the edge though.

Form 4 Freiza at 50%, that percentage is correct, but that level is from the daizenshuu which is wrong for many reasons.

70% is right, but the level is wrong because of the daizenshuu.

100% is right, but the level is wrong.

Like I said above, the daizenshuu doesn't give a % for freiza before he goes 50%, skull mac just put it there.

Freiza doesn't exactly say he's using 20% of his power, but I used proportions, and geometric ratios to get that %.

Freiza when he transformed to his 4th form was lower than 50%, and you'll agree with me. So we can deduce that from 1-50%. And there is no way freiza could be at 1%, not even 15%. so we can deduce that from 16-49%. now we can deduce the 49% to 40% since it sounds just so wrong. I'll up the 16% to 20% since the calculations would be a bit off. so we have 20-40%. Now freiza couldn't have been at 40% since he would get a small increase going to 50%, I'll dduce this to 35%.

Freiza form 4 just when he transformed was even with Vegeta, even though they didn't fight, and Vegeta sensed Freiza's power. When Freiza saw vegeta's blast, he knew he was going to have a hard time at this %, so he powered up a bit upping his %. Now lets assume Freiza when he transformed was at 20%, which is pretty much accurate since he's never at an odd number % ending in 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. Well I guess he was at 20% when he started.

Freiza charged up to 30%. so he had a 50% advantage over vegeta:

example:
--------
Vegeta: 10
Freiza form 4(20%): 10
Freiza form 4(30%): 15

a 50% advantage is enough to beat down the opponent, and kill him.



Yes Freiza at 50% is 2x weaker than he is at 100%. And Yes there is a way they could've been at 20 million, and I'll show you.

Okay let's assume Freiza form 4 at 20% was at 3 million for the sake of it. Vegeta was at the same level so:

Freiza form 4 20%: 3 million
Vegeta: 3 million

Freiza upped his power to 30% so now he's at:

Freiza form 4 30%: 4.5 million

Goku comes, and he's almost as strong as Freiza using kk*10.

Goku(base level): 420,000
Goku(kk*10): 4.2 million
Freiza form 4 30%: 4.5 million

Freiza gets bored of the fight and goes up to 50% so:

Freiza form 4 50%: 7.5 million

Then Goku gets tired:

Goku(tired): 350,000

Then Goku goes kk*20

Goku(kk*20): 7 million

They are about even, but Freiza still has the edge in this fight, Freiza gets bored again and upped his power to 70%.

Freiza form 4 70%: 10.5 million

Goku stops using kk*20 and gets really tired

Goku(tired some more): 250,000

He has no other choice but to use the genki-dama.

Then Genki-dama hits freiza, freiza's still alive, freiza kshoots piccolo, kills krillin, Goku gets mad, turns SSJ.

SSJ Goku: 15 million

Goku beats on freiza, freiza throws ball at namek, freiza says 5 mins. till planet explodes, goku tells freiza to go all out, freiza says he will, Goku says it'll put to much stress on freiza, freiza doesn't care.

Freiza form 4 100%: 15 million

They are even until Freiza gets tired from using 100%.

Okay say they weren't at 20 million, but I just used a random PL that was close to what you thought so you wouldn't aruge with it. I'd put Freiza at max at 21 million, and him using 20% at 4,240,000.


Goku's max was at 90,000, I told you this like 5 times, he was at 90,000, then Ginyu kept beating Goku, then Goku yells out KAIO-KEN!!! And goes up to 180,000.

That Goku's base PL was from the daizenshuu, and that level is too low to be Goku's base.

Again like his base level, his kk*10 level is too low to fight freiza. kk*20 shouldn't be at 6 million, it shouldve decrease from the daizenshuu's levels, but the daizenshuu is wrong.

The SSJ Goku PL is your opinion.

No that's not true. Piccolo against form 2 freiza at 90%(or close to that %), Piccolo said he was a bit stronger, but they were about even.

Same Goes for Goku vs Freiza, Goku uses kk, they match blow for blow(sometimes), but Freiza has the edge.


hmm... I'm getting confused right here but what I meant is... Oro would catch the DB"Z" character, and grapple the DB"Z" character so hard that he couldn't escape, then drop him down like a ground.

Okay that is true, but it won't work on twelve, because he can disappear, and has no ki, so he can't be sensed.

yep

It's not known if Bardock fought Dodoria, but if he did, Bardock would get his ass kicked.

This is off the current subject, but whoever wants to answer this can.

If Street Fighter and DB faught, don't you think the DarkStalkers would know, since they are closely related? And don't you think they'd help SF? O.o; Just 2 questions....

Dark Stalkers and SF are made by the same company(Capcom), but they don't take place in the same universe(at least not yet), but if Dark Stalkers fought DB, Dark Stalkers would win, all Pyron needs to do is blow up the earth with his fist or whatever....

dragon ball z would win,but i like street fighter better.(and i have seen the episodes and movies of street fighter

And Why do you think DB"Z" would win...?

Joe inpressive and Tarkan X you've got an answer for everything good job you two..... ;)

(WOW 17 pages keep it up Tarkan X
it must be straining)

darkstalkers and SF doesn't exist in the same univers (unlike marvel who made all their char lives in the same erath) thru most of the chars were living on earth and Jedah transported them in his own dimension (story from DS2).

Bulletta = earthling
both succubus = earthling
sasquatch = earthling
all the other char including demitri are earthling except for pyron the alien and jedah the (im suppose he's like a vampire god since all his moves include blood) !

they just live in a parrallel earth where evil creature reign on earth ans SF live in a parrallel world of this earth and heroes creature reign !

but the fact is...
they will never know each other or jedah would have taken some SF in his own dimension for the god brain !

BACK TO DB...
guesse's are one way to put it but you cannot say even by deduction say at what they were !
goku was even with frieza when he became SSJ but after a while frieza gets all tired and couldn't sustain his full power (100%) but goku's rage kept him at full power for way much longer than what it was suppose to. so frieza gets beaten !

vegeta was even with frieza form 1 that why he gets to form 2 then piccolo came and fought him, he was weaker but knew all his moves so that's why he beated him. then frieza gets to form 3 then seeing how all 3 of them fought against him he decided to go to his real form (form 4).

then after killing vegeta goku came and he was way stronger than anyone on the field but frieza was way stronger than him and that's until he goes SSJ !

my guess is, he wasn't stronger than Frieza with his SSJ form (when frieza was at max) this is the SSJ error that all SSJ makes (underratting their opponent and toying with them) goku did this error and gohan did this error too, vegeta and trunks did too !

but goku had an advantage that he never knew until it happens ! he way angry and could sustain his power at SSJ level when frieza was already sweathing like hell and that when he said that it was all over for frieza !

it's my guess from the TV show !

guesses is all we can say cause no one will ever confirm powert levels that were at stake !

my guess for that is... akira toriyama flushed the scouter's destroying them all, because it was way more confusing than helping to know the stronger !