i'm saying that in response to Tarkan

Ryu, Akuma, Bison, and Rose also are very good at ki manipulation. Play against Shin Bison in SFA3 and you will see what I mean about him, and Rose uses ki to reflect ki.

but they cannot manipulate ki at the level of the Z fighters.

And I say that they can, but unlike DBZ they don't rely on it because they have SKILL. Your whole argument on DBZ fighters having the maximum amount of skill possible is ridiculous. No matter how good somebody is, they can always become better.

omg don't you understand?!

ki manipulation is a higher level of skill. go ask any martial artist expert! ki is used in every aspect of martial arts. to perform skilled moves in the most perfect fashion and beyond, you must enhance it with ki. ki is what makes skill PERFECT! and once that has been achieved, martial artists move on to manifesting the ki and using it in the form of energy like they do in dbz and SF!

Let's not bring morals and ethics into this. If this were true, than the attack would kill Akuma too, since he's killed ppl in the past as well.

You said that the purple energy shoots out of Akuma's hand and hits the enemy. That sure sounds like a beam to me.

And Shine SHine is short for Shine Shine Rapid Fire Death Missile Barrage (one of Gotenks' attacks)

It's not a projectile. It flies above you and then quickly sticks you in the middle of it and crushes you.

Bah...you say Seraph WIng for everything. He can't do infinite Seraph WIngs

??? what the hell is a kongou whatever?

It's not a projectile

whats the EX yagyou thing again?

Why not?

The fighters in DBZ are way beyond the need to use skill. They stopped using pure skill and technique back during the DB Budokais. Because they're so strong, there's only one technique they really need to use: grappling. Anything other than that is useless, since they're so strong

Disobeying a parent is not a sin. DISHONORING a parent is a sin. And the vast majority of Japan does not worship the christian religion, so you can't use the christian set of rules and ideals here

That really doesn't count, Cell was an artificial being, and does not count as a murder/killing. It's like killing a robot, that doesn't count either

The DBZ characters rely on Ki so much because they have transcended the need for normal martial arts and technique. Due to their speed and strength, the only art they truly need is Grappling

Not true. Gohan can no longer get any stronger, faster, or more skilled than he already is, because he has reached his maximum potential in strength and speed and etc.

This is true. There are many martial arts in real life that make good use of ki, such as Juku Kai and Kaishin (sp). They all rely on the use of ki to absorb attacks and deliver counterattacks

Not necessarily. He knows how to defend himself in hell, from what I read up on him. Thus, it doesn't damage him....

[quote:post_uid0="Roll"]Not necessarily. He knows how to defend himself in hell, from what I read up on him. Thus, it doesn't damage him....[/quote]

Just because he has the ability to defend himself in hell doesnt' mean that the attack wouldn't damage him and send him to hell. That just means that when he uses the attack, he'd go to hell too, but would still beat the opponent because hell wouldnt' bother him.

However, ppl like Goku and Vegeta can already defend themselves in the afterlife, both heaven and hell. THerefore, Akuma would have to fight them in hell too, except he wouldn't have the satsu anymore as a trump card

You DO know what happens when your soul is ripped from your body by demons, right? You kinda die right then and there, and no physical preparedness is going to help you.

that kind of depends on your beliefs and religion

princevegetam, we are talking about the reality that exists in Street Fighter. In the Street Fighter reality, that happens when the soul is ripped from the body. M. Bison was hit with Shun Goku Satsu, and when light returned his body was dead and soulless on the ground.

Gimme a break! Cell has a soul obviously if he is in Hell. Buu also has a soul. Thusly, through logic, the Cell Juniors have souls too. Also, the androids have souls because they aren't all artificial.

Akuma knows how to defend himself in Hell and the Z-Warriors don't. Thusly the Shun Goku Satsu could kill anybody in DBZ who committed a sin, and that is everybody.

You can't argue that it doesn't count to kill Cell, because Cell was/is (depending on what point in the series you reference) a living being. Whether or not he was artificially created is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that Gohan took his life.

what about the reality in dbz?

Cell never went to hell. That was just filler in the Afterlife Tournament, when Cell and Furiza took control of Hell. That never really happened. Therefore, since Cell was artifically created, he has no soul.

And Buu doesn't have a soul, because he is made of pure magic, with no life essence. Since he isn't technically a living, breathing being, he has no soul.

And the androids' souls were removed when they actually became androids. And 16 never had a soul, since he's 100% mechanical.

Therefore, killing them is like hitting the "off" button on their circuitry.

First off, Akuma has committed sins before. And even though he can defend himself in hell, his soul will still go to hell.

And how do you know that the Z fighters can't defend themselves in hell? Goku defended himself in hell when he fell off of Snake Way. Vegeta should have been able to defend himself, because he was used to evil deeds, hell should have been nothing.

In a nutshell, the Shun Goku Satsu is a kamikaze attack. Akuma's body would be destroyed, but his soul will survive in hell. That would automatically eliminate Akuma from the fight

He was, in a way, alive indeed, but he had no soul. In a way, it's like "killing" a zombie. He is destroyed, but there is no soul to send to heaven or hell.

And still, like I said, Akuma would also be destroyed with whomever he kills.

And the attack cannot affect Goten, Trunks, and Goku, because seriously, they never killed anyone. Goku didn't kill Radditsu, Piccolo did. Goku never killed Baata or Rikum, he only crippled them. Vegeta killed them. Goku never killed Furiza, only crippled him. He also never killed any of the androids, none of the Cell Jrs, or Buu (since Goku didnt' kill Buu, the ppl of earth did) Therefore, Goku has never killed anyone, and is unaffected by the Satsu. Same goes for Goten and Trunks. They never killed anyone, and therefore are unaffected by the Satsu

lol, i'll let mr. stubborn nantuko joe handle the dbz side, but i got one question for both sides tho:


would killing animals be considered a sin? what about killing flowers and stuff? they have soul don't they?

Akuma has performed the attack several times in the story.

He used the Shun Goku Satsu as Ken watched him kill Gouken.
He attempted to kill Gen using the Shun Goku Satsu, but failed because Gen had purified his soul and atoned for all of the deaths he caused as an assassin.
He destroyed M. Bison with the Shun Goku Satsu just before, during, or immediately after the final battle in the Street Fighter II tournament.

Every time Akuma used the technique he came out unscathed. Thusly by determination of the occurences in the story, the attack is NOT a Kamikaze attack.

History on Oro: Oro is a master in his own right, so powerful that no matter how hard he searched he could find no equal on Earth to teach his techniques and styles to. He then had to paralyze one of his arms using magic, and even then most people couldn't take him down. Ryu is the only one who could come close to taking Oro on one-armed (SFIII), and Oro determines that in 15 years more of training Ryu should be powerful enough to give Oro at least a challenge with him using both arms.

In the SFIII games Oro has one arm paralyzed and in a sling. Because of this, Oro's Super Arts have two versions each. One version uses just his free arm, and the other one takes all of the Super Meter's energy (all levels) and he rips off his sling and makes use of his other arm in an insanely powerful attack.

Oro's Yagyou Dama is where he uses one arm and fires off a semi-large floating orb that drifts lethargically across the screen. It is not terribly powerful.

Oro's EX Yagyou Dama is where he rips off his sling and leaps into the air and forms an energy ball that takes up half the screen and hurls it at the person. It is one of the most damaging attacks in the Street Fighter world.

I say Cell had a soul, you say he didn't, and there is no way to prove or disprove this, so we should drop it. Nonetheless, Cell thought and thusly existed, and Gohan killed him.

I can understand the androids not having a soul because Android 16 never comes back when everybody else who was killed by Cell is resurrected.

Buu most certainly has a soul because Shenron resurrects Kid Buu as Ubuu, purified of his evil. Because he can be resurrected, that means that Buu has a soul, unlike Android 16 who can't be resurrected.

For princevegetam's questions: it should be a sin to kill an animal for the heck of it, but to kill plants is... well, stupid. We'd all go to Hell because we decided to walk across the grass instead of using the sidewalk.

wait, if gen purified his soul, why can't the z fighers do the same? how did he purify his soul? is there something you are not tell us?

Capcom is renowned throughout the gaming world for leaving plot holes. They never said how he did it. To doublecheck I'll have to look over my official canon Street Fighter storyline compiled by fans and given the OK by Capcom.

- Double post due to internet glitch -

Quick addition: Dun forget Oro's other attacks! (Tenguu Ishi, Kishin Kuuchuu Jigoku Guruma, EX Hitobashira Natori, EX Nichirin Shou, etc.)

princevegeta, you just took the words out of my mouth

Well, by the description of the attack, that must be another one of the plotholes in SF storyline. If the attack affects ppl who have committed sins and killed ppl, then it should affect Akuma also

And neither did Android 17. ONly 18 came back, and that was because the wish was directed specifically at her

Can you give me a power-wise comparison to a DBZ attack?

I figured it out. It wasn't Buu's soul that was resurrected into Ubuu. It was the soul of the Dai Kaioshin that Buu absorbed when he was first created by Bibidi. Therefore, it was the soul of the Dai Kaioshin that was brought back, not of Buu

Android 18 was never killed. She was just barfed up by Cell if you recall, and the explosives were removed from her body using the wish.

They explain Akuma's ability to not die from the Shun Goku Satsu by saying that he knows how to defend himself in Hell. Once again, that is not a very good explanation, but it is the explanation nonetheless.

The EX Yagyou Dama may be comporable to the Genki Dama, but it would depend on how long he concentrated on it. It is a very large and incredibly damaging attack when he just hops up and throws it without concentrating. If he concentrated, it could be just as powerful or even more than the Genki Dama. It also doesn't matter if you throw it at somebody who's killed millions or a little kid full of innocence... it'll still hurt 'em. In that sense it is better than the Genki Dama, because it is not conditional.

Dai Kaioushin is forever a part of Fat Buu, which is the reason that Fat Buu is fat in the first place. Kid Buu had no fighters absorbed to resurrect as part of him.

if it's as powerful as the genki dama, then it would be powerful enough to destroy a planet?

If he concentrated for long enough it could.

i believe that statement is "theoretical" , it looks fckin big and it can make fckin big explosions, but destroying a planet is a totally different story.

Oro

[quote]
2. their bodies can

lol


well, yeah, that's what i said from the beginning. sf wins with 100% credit to gill. otherwise, dbz wins. there is no fckin way that oro or akuma has ki manipulation capabilities of dbz characters.

You've never seen Oro or you might say otherwise.

Gill = a God
Goku = a scrub

Squish.

Dan, you still never explained how Gen purified his soul. Because that is a VERY big advantage on the part of DBZ if they purify their souls.

First off, Goten and Trunks have never done anything bad. Second off, judgment of what is considered good and what is bad is relative and not defined in a set of morals. Originally, when you were arguing the SGS, you said past evils, like killing someone. Now, all of a sudden, you're talking about doing a teeny tiny bad thing or disobeying a parent. Give me a break

And the SGS is a super move, is it not? WHich means that a DBZ fighter may be able to end the fight against Akuma before Akuma gathers enough "super bar" energy to unleash the SGS

GRRR... I said that Capcom THEMSELVES never explained how he did it, so I can't tell you how it happened!

Goku killed in Dragonball.

Goten and Trunks, Goten and Trunks... well, they weren't exactly the most well-behaved children in the world, but at the same time they never killed anybody. Despite this, they aren't strong enough to take Akuma when he doesn't use the SGS.

I have always said that my argument for the SGS is based on past murders.

DBZ characters pull out a Kame Hame Ha without charging up a little meter for them, right? SGS can be done like that too.

there's only one SF character that stands a chance....AND THAT'S GILL!

Oro, well nobody knows his true potential so i guess we'll have to wait and see in the next SF game or somethin

He said some Japanese words which released his soul.

Now your disproving what you said about super bars. Akuma just does the shun goku satsu, he did the shun goku satsu on gen, and he was still fighting Gen at his max, without any signs of being drained of his energy.

Couldnt the Z fighters attack Akuma before he does his attack that you guys are talking about because the Z fighters are so fast the could probably hit Akuma before he does anything. About Goku and Vegeta fighting in hell. They could since when they were fighting Janeba and killed him using Goku and Vegeta Fusion.

By themselves, they're not strong enough. However, they CAN fuse into Gotenks, who in turn can go SSJ3

Ok, I can stand behind that

So what's to stop the DBZ fighters from mumbling some Japanese incantation?

So it's kinda like what Dan said? Or is the SGS a special move like the Hadoken

That occured in Movie #12, not in the manga. As we all know, the movies never happened in the DBZ storyline, and do not appear in the manga, so they can't be used in this debate

2 things. Finding out what words to say, and saying it fast enough.

The way they're arguing about it, I guess not. :dozing off:

gill kicks all dbz ass

otherwise all other sf characters suck

period

it's not possible for gill to die, even if his body is destroyed his soul still lives. no other dbz character can compare to that.

Taken from the SF plot canon guide

What happens during the shungokusatsu is that they go to hell. The
demons in hell will attack the person even if they're sin free or not.
They're demons, they'll go at anything. But with evil characters, their
past sins will also haunt on top of the demons attacking them for that
split second. Gen survives this because he empties his spirit, heart and
mind. "Onore wo mu ni suru". "Mu" means emptiness, nothingness. One of the
reasons why Gouken has the kanji "Mu" on his back. It's really not about
how strong the person is but how tuned and focused they are with their mind
and soul.


Guess that answers your question.