Actually Roll is a she, not a he (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong). Roll is actually an excellent debator, and has not been spamming, but providing us with her own outlook on religion/science/spirituality. You just choose to flame her because you don't like what she's saying.

No gay man actually believes that god created Adam and Steve. That's just a horrible prejudicial stereotype bestowed down upon homosexuals because they're different from heterosexuals.

Um....I NEVER said "baboons." In every single post I've made, I've said "apes," or more specifically, "chimpanzees." And you yell at me for putting words in YOUR mouth.

No, the FACT that humans evolved from apes vs the THEORY that god created humans.....it's only THEORY because it's never been proven true.

How are we special? We ARE animals. The ONLY difference between us and say, a chimp, are the following:

--We are more highly evolved. This means...
------Our DNA contains better chromosomes
------Our brains are larger and more well-developed

That's the only difference. We are not "special." We are animals that have better brains than we do. Just like the shark has a better swimming ability than we do, and just like birds have wings and can fly wheras we cannot.

Exactly, I fully agree. But how do you KNOW that the source is god? How do you know that the source wasn't the Big Bang? Scientists have already PROVEN that the universe is still expanding. It is FACT. It is TRUTH. The universe is expanding, and you cannot deny it, because it's happening as we speak.

So if the universe is expanding, then if we go backwards in time, the universe would start shrinking, and eventually wind all the way back to one single solitary point in space, where the big bang occurred...SUPPOSEDLY. It's NOT fact, it's NOT truth, but it's theory that's BASED ON EVIDENCE.

What evidence is there to suggest that your god really exists? A book, and that's it. What evidence is there to suggest that human evolution is fact, wheras god is a theory? All the evidence in the world. As you so eloquently put it....the proof is all around you, it's everywhere. You just choose not to see it.

But you ARE ignoring my points. I provided a huge post on human evolution based on FACT. What did you say?

"no joe ur wrong the scientists are wrong and lying to everyone and themselves"

dubya tee eff is that? First off, that's NOT how you debate. You pick apart the post as a whole and debate each of its points one by one. You don't simply say "ur wrong."

I don't think YOUR points make any sense, but does that stop me from debating them? No!

So until YOU start debating my points, which you don't understand even though they're based on FACT, then I'm going to ignore YOUR points, and for the same reason you gave me. "because they don't make sense."

And you say that I'm blind, that everyone else is blind. At least we are open to criticism, at least we are open to try and see things from another point of view. I USED to believe in god, but simply saw things from a different point of view. And I still am open to other ideas. Roll's beliefs are intriguing to me, there could be something there.

But you, on the other hand, are NOT open to other ideas. Anything you don't agree with, you meet with hostile rejection. By stating that there is no such thing as reincarnation (as if you had proof to back your claim), you've publicly stated not that you THINK other religions are wrong, but that they ARE wrong, once again with no evidence to back your claims. And you ask me a question, I provide cold hard data, actual FACT supporting my argument, and then simply say "no joe ur wrong." Once again, you did NOT say "well that's a good argument, but my beliefs are different" or "I THINK ur wrong," but you flat-out state "joe ur wrong the scientists are wrong." That's some bullcrap. To flat-out state that is to ignore the truth.

Back when I believed in god and the bible, I was the same way. I didn't want to believe science. I was afraid that I was wrong and that there was another explanation out there, a better explanation. But unlike you, who completely shuts out not just suggestions, but FACT, I was open to new ideas. I was able to think for myself without rejecting all other beliefs.

__________

Now.....debates are fought by providing cold, hard data. In a courtroom, if you were to debate the existence of god, you would need to bring evidence, bring proof, to the table in order to even be able to speak. If someone got into a political debate about god and the opposing side brought forth debate materials such as I did....fact that has been PROVEN true....this material would HAVE to be recognized by both the audience and the other debate team at large. If the one side of the debate makes a claim, but has no evidence, their argument is null and void.

So tell me, who has the better argument? The side that says "I say that god does not exist, for these reasons (reason a, reason b, reason c, etc) and here is the evidence to prove it."?

Or the side that says "No, the other team is wrong, all their evidence is wrong, because I don't think it makes sense. God is real, and if you don't think so, you're blinded to the real world."

Really. In an actual rational argument, who really makes more sense? The side that presents rational fact, or the side that makes claims without providing proof and insulting the other team?

My point is that unless you are actually going to debate my points, don't post at all, because YOUR posts would be considered spam.

Besides, how can you say that you're "very good in science," say that you "have the edge in this debate," yet say that my science-based proof makes no sense? It's the simple fact of human evolution! How can you claim to be good at science not only when you say that science makes no sense, but when you say that science is wrong? That makes less sense than anything else you've insisted upon thus far....well, almost....

Yes: I am, always have been, and always will be a girl. ^-^
..and thank you for the defence, Joe. *hugs*

I'd just like to point out right here that I was then one that started an argument, and debate. Don't give him blame when it wasn't truly his fault in the first place.
....and what's wrong with debating? '

Really? Give us an example. Let me guess DMC?

[quote:post_uid0="alamgir"]Really? Give us an example. Let me guess DMC?[/quote]
*doesn't have a clue what DMC stands for or is*

If you meant for the game thing, I was kind of leaning towards the Breath of Fire 2 game. I can't say much for any other Breath of Fire games, since I have not had the chance to play them. Also, some Street Fighter characters are quite "religious".

Nantuko, there is no offence to be taken into account, i didn't read the topic entirely on purpose, i knew tat what i was saying would have probably been said already. so there is no offense taken !

as for some facts...
well nantuko you said science has proofs as well !
well take it from this point of view...

who said 2 + 2 = 4 ?
why is it so ?
who created science ?
and why humans do mistakes ?

if you take all these 4 questions into accounts... you notice how science is purely made by a being that makes lots of mistakes, then why wouldn't science be our biggest mistake ? science could be wrong, not entirely but mainly.

so i am on the side that everything could be everything.
science didn't solved half of the events we had in life.

as in, depending on science, 10/10 things are bad for our health !
yet we live in this world so how come it is bad for our health ?

knowing that, i know for a fact, my fact, my opinion, that nothing can be prooved in existence. unless you, the person, actually experienced it yourself !

as for religions... well i say all of them are derived from only one truth, but that in history got viewed by so many people. that it deformed completely and now each single religion as a little piece of it right !

the best example is...
the game we called telephone, play it with more then 10 friends and see howbad the first sentence was changed. now take the bible and extrapolate it, same with all books of all religions. notice how the books of today cannot be true to what they were 2000 years ago ! because it is 2000 years of extrapolation, 2000 years of change to the text, 2000 years of view from different people who didn't even see the same thing.

so knowing this, how can these books be true in the end ?

as for the big bang theory...
well its true that the universe is expanding, but was it always expanding ?
let's say the universe was not expanding, something very big happens and bang, it throws all the system away. what we see today is an expansion yes... but there is no way for us to know that the system was just a small point in the universe history. it could have been a small system that was running normally when its sun exploded and brought disaster to the whole solar system which threw all planets in it away and since some of them have been crashing thru each others, it threw zillions of rocks true the universe thus creating everything else.

see, there is multiple point of view, but there is no way to know which one will ever be true.

there is one thing i always learned around here... you don't live in the past, so does it matter to know what hapenned and why we are here right now debating about this ?

my answer, no, there is no reason to that. because it won't change anything about our present lives. so live in the time you are now, god or not, you still gotta live your life the way you want it to be lived ! and no one can make you live the life you don't want to !

don't take it wrong... i became ATHEIST because there was no proof from any side that things really happenned. i believe my own belif and that's the only thing that matter for me ! that's all that should matter for everyone else as well !

Before I pour out my guts in this topic, I'd like to congratulate folks who have debated and reasoned like normal human beings.. To the other wombats... well good luck and God speed :biggrin:

Now first off, I'll head for the topic.. SBYRD5.. I've heard of this incident.. but from what I believe and what I can comprehend, hell is real.. but definitely not anywhere on this planet. Just like heaven, it's spiritual.. and it takes faith for you to believe.. If you think it's real.. then it is.. If you think it's not.. then that's your cup of tea with bread, milk and sugar. Whether or not the one party is correct or wrong, it wouldn't matter to the other one and vice versa.


Now this is from Blossom

This is one of the most reasonable things I've read in this topic.

As a christain, to argue with an unbeliever (no offense) is to reason at the same threshold with them. What on earth gives you the knowledge that you can infact prove that God does exist.. when you know very well that He is spirit and by faith... only by faith do we follow his doctrine.

The Bible is his word.. and that's the so-called code of honor we follow... That doesn't mean that it can be used in a forum like this.. where different minds, Point of views and logic.
Some ppl believe in science, some ppl believe in wombats.. *cougH* and some ppl believe in God. :biggrin:

Before I go on, just for those still wondering I am a christain!

Nowback to my point. If you are... as a christain, going to debate on a topic as delicate as this, you must remember that in our Bible, it does in fact say that there are ppl that are gonna disagree with ours and we cannot force them to think the way we think. Instead try to make them see that your way is the correct way.. and if they don't fine.. If they do.. fine. Remember Paul said that we would be the most reasonable set of ppl on this earth if in all honesty, our beliefs aren't truth..and our faith has no substance.

Now those of you who aren't christains.. This topic took a quick, sharp and unhealthy turn. I've always run away from these types in forums like this (don't know why.. must be my stupidity. :biggrin: ) But for some reason, I do like the way you guys put your facts down.
But be warned.. that there is in fact some physical .. though rare... evidence that there is a God.
Think of it this way.. Everything in your life that has occured.. right from the day you were born to this day. Can every single thing be explained by science. Can you explain coincidence, luck or somethings that just work in your favor.. or not in your favor?
If you can.. then good luck to ya.. For I wouldn't believe it one bit!

But I am for one open to ideas.. like you Joe. If there's one thing I share with some of you, it's the fact that the beliefs of others intrigue me. And I'm willing to read more if they infact exist.

Now to the whole big bang theory.. Well, to me.. it makes no sense.. Sure it's fact that the universe is expanding.. but how on earth can you tell me that the world was created from an explosion? And to those who believe that humans evolved from Ape or monkeys or chimpazees.. Get ur facts straight. I've indeed read the theory that the sceintist put out.. but for Darwin to call on God's name in his death bed.. after his theory on evolution.. heh..
Ok.. Let me put it this way.. Humans didn't evolve from chimpazees.. cause if they did.. Why didn't the other chimpazees involve??
Now an earlier species known as the Australopethicus Africanus or in the early man is where we evolved from. From that to the homo habilis (cause they could handle stuff).. to the homo erectus (cause they could walk straight) and to the present homo sapiens.. (cause they think.. which isn't sometimes good for them.) Now do I believe in what I've just wrote.. maybe.. maybe not. But that's just the origin of the present human beings according to science.

If infact the science was true and correct and accurate all along, then why haven't the homo sapiens evolved.. after living for such a long time?? These are just some of the questions.. that how should I say.. distorts my belief in science and evolution as the origin of man.

That statement.. who ever made it has no substance.. so I wouldn't bother making any comment to it.

Now I'll attack the gays.. I have nothing against homo sexuals.. except the main question every straight.. so to say person asks... How on earth do.. well you get the idea.. :biggrin: I wouldn't go into that.. But for those who say they are christains and are gay.. Pure folly! You say you believe in God.. and yet you don't follow his words.. Then you are stupid. You should try reading the first chapter of Romans to understand what I'm saying.
Now if you're gay and you don't believe in God.. then I've got nothing against you.. All I can do is ask why.. Like a certain wombat once said,

How... on the other hand seems to be a more reasonable question.

And if you want more evidence that God does exist, think about your sleeping and waking up everyday.. Why don't you just sleep and die in your sleep like some ppl do. Well, I know there's a basic and very brillaint scientific explanation to that.. so I'd like to hear.. for this brainless child hasn't dug deeper into that realm of knowledge.

I'll like to end my epistle on this quote. Truly.. you would win for you have brought evidence that partain to this world.. and in cold fact God doesn't exist.. for there's nothing physical.. or man like about him. He's spirit.. and those who choose to have faith in him believe and walk in his part, do so in spirit and truth.. and definitely not with facts that would work in a courtroom.

Feast ur eyes on my ownment and drool.. *cough* j/k :biggrin:

--nuff said!

Edit: Oh and btw the wombat that made that quote about digging deeper into why.. instead of asking how was blanka09 :biggrin:



Edited By blanka09 on Mar. 22 2004 at 14:38

What? did u not read my post? Im not sure where u got baboons from but we did not evolve FROM apes. We all had that one common ancestor but it then branched of to monkeys, apes, chimps. The reason we know this as a fact cuase of the closenes we have with chimps. Like look at the birds take a small blue jay and a Hawk. They are both birds right? But u think that a big hawk evolved out of that small bird into the big preadtor it is? Same with Dogs and wolfs they did not evolve out of each other. And the bobcat and normal cat. Im just putting this down as a example.


Devil May Cry is what he means roll. And I have played Breath of Fire 2 (to bad it got erased before I made it to the end) And that gaem did pick on the religon thing. Of how the people where brainwash to worship this false god and the prist was a demon or sumthing. And if youdid not take into it they would have killed u.


The johavah Witness believe that there are Demons that cuase all the bad luck and choas on the earth. Sounds crazy and so I am to belive my luck in winning the lottery. Or taking my school basketball game to finals and making the final shot. Its God that gives us this good luck or turn arounds in life?


Excatly what ive been trying to say from the start. Meaning that every word from word cannot be true in the Bible.

..Oh no, not another Pro/Con religion topic. ???
Elena is correct, this topic should have been closed along time ago.

Religion is a personal choice, and should be kept and shared with ones friends and family and not forced upon the public.
There are entire forums on the internet dedicated to these kinds of discussions...this is not one of them.

I do know one thing though...

The universe is too old, vast and complex in it's entirety for mankind to ever fully grasp and understand as a whole.
No matter how long the human race exists or how evolved our technology gets, the "whole" will always be larger then our ability to understand "why".

The events of the universe, including life..."just are".
And we are bound to these events and circumstances weather we want to be or not.

Live your life the way you want to, believe the things you wish to believe, do the things you wish to do, and be happy that others are doing the same.

The universe is an organized cycling chaos from all appearances, it only makes sense that it's organisms are too.

This topic is now CLOSED



Edited By nosoul4evr on Mar. 22 2004 at 20:59