Ssj karma, and anyone who thinks tiers don't exist - Come here!

[TarkanX]

Why do you keep saying they don't exist, I always point out that if the same players are at the same skill level(skill level meaning average to highest), look, Storm vs Dan; Thanos with 6 rings vs Jubilee; Mewtwo vs Caterpie(at same level); Magneto vs Juggernaut; Human vs small harmless ant

Do you see what I mean? You can't deny, and especially about "what about if they werent at the same level, because I just pointed that out. Tiers do exist, and if you can't give a good explanation, then you lose!!!!!

[devilsoul]

huh?ok tarkenx i don't understand wut u just said

[mastaq]

A level 100 Mewtwo vs a level 100 Caterpie.. The end result is Mewtwo winning. Tiers do exist no matter what anyone says. Like if I have a gun up to your head and your bound and gagged.. guess who wins.. :laughlong:

[SSJKarma]

let put you into what i meant by people are what makes you think there are tiers !

put the same two people in the same room that are the very same skills and are very good friends that knows how to play and knows how the other plays.

see how they are winning equally...
why ?
because people makes mistakes, we all did and i refuse to think that evenm the best of the best doesn't which means someone will win when the other make a mistake cause if the game is very well played and the peoples doesn't do mistakes, notice how the match takes a very long time to play cause its about cheap damage done by BLOCKING DAMAGE !

i'll put you into an exact thing that hapenned when the game KILER INSTINCT came out.
everyone knew the combo's and once you were took by suprise on one of those there was no way to come out alive and you would have lose, so what was that people made, blocks and combo, blocks and combo, and it was always that !

you can't deny that KILLER INSTINCT has about the same system as CAPCOM combos right now, except that in the game you don't have 3-in-1 moves !

so basically, yes, tiers doesn't exists cause what makes someone lose, is all about MISTAKES and the skills themselves, for skills, it is always sharpening, meaning that everyone without exception can become better then the other. which means if the guy lose a lot against one player then suddently that same loser will become a winner and the winner will eventually become a loser !

as for mistakes done in game, i will never believe that anyone does not do mistakes during a match, we all do and there is no expcetion. adding on that, there is the circumstances that makes the skills get worst... meaning that the emotions of the persons will enter into play as well !

the only thing that would tell you if there are nay TIERS were if you put the same AI COMPUTER angainst himself cause the human factor as too much things that make two persons totally different. which means no one is identical even if their skills is the same, their way of playing will always be different which means you can't base your tests with humans in the equation !

now, if you say i'm wrong and this is not a valid argument then go #### yourself with that #### cause i aint buying for the very good reason mentionned above !

now close that damn thing.
how many times willl you bring this kind of topiuc in TARKAN ?
its like 4th times you bring that back !

[devilsoul]

nevermind im just stupid in a way i guess thats why i don't know what you people are talking about



Edited By devilsoul on May 11 2003 at 01:27

[SolidSnake76]

u 2 still fighting over this?

[bloodpack]

take it to the high court :biggrin:

[DA_VIPA]

i still dun get ,all i can see is jibberish...

nevermind im just stupid in a way i guess thats why i don't know what you people are talking about
stop this nonsense

[Roll's Friend]

take it to the high court :biggrin:
XMVSSF...

[devilsoul]

nevermind im just stupid in a way i guess thats why i don't know what you people are talking about
stop this nonsense
wut the hell u talking about nonsense, how the hell im i sopost 2 know wut the hell there talking about :angryfire:

[DanYankees]

Karma you freaken piss me off with this crap you post. You seriously don't know what you're talking about most of the time.

Tark has explained all about tiers to me. How can you say there AREN'T tiers? All players compete at a different level. Some more skilled, some less skilled.

[da_realX]

ssjkarma, he beat u in a fight didnt he...

[SSJKarma]

yeah, and today can i beat ! yes also !

tiers aren't existing !
the only way you can prove me they exists, is only if you could make the AI fight against himself. see how equal the match is ! see how long it takes for the AI against himself at the very highest point gets KOed, it takes a very very very very very long time !

so i say, if you refer to tiers and refer yourselves to human being to demonstrate it to you, then you are clearly believe RANDOM STATS that changes all the times ! cause the HUMAN FACTOR is composed of so many other items ! like EMOTIONS during the fights, mistakes made during the fights, the controllers used during the fights, the whole contexts, during the fight ! even the environnment changes during the fights which will lead you to even more false results !

again, don't ever give that ####### arguments that say BEST AGAINST BEST is what i based myself on and is the best argument you have, cause even the best make mistakes, even the best of the best have emiotionnal problems, even best of the best can be playing with a defective controller ! even the best of the best can be distracted by the environment !

so how can you say that the human factor is a good result when all of those variables are in effects ?
as far as i know, there is no way to completely erase them all from the equations. so i continu to say that tiers doesn't exists cause no one ever prooved to me that the characters are very very very very very very very very weak in a certain game !

even i who plays with SERVBOT in MvsC2 knows that he is weak in strenght and stamina, but if i can beat my friend who has about the very same fighting skill as myself then it means that servbot isn't necessarely the weakest of them all !

[viper2040]

higher court, eh?
<span id='ME'><center>viper2040 thinks about it...</center></span>


Case No. 1463 TarkanX vs SSJKarma...

Judge TMyApp presiding.

The plaintiff, TarkanX asserts that the defendants continual denial of a teir system is absurd. The defendant, SSJKarma, holds that it is not some fantastical concept as a tier that decides battles, but rather the skill of the two combatants.

Court is now in session.

The court shall now hear the opening statement from the plaintiff....TarkanX? Please State your case.

[Weidi]

Karma you freaken piss me off with this crap you post. You seriously don't know what you're talking about most of the time.

Tark has explained all about tiers to me. How can you say there AREN'T tiers? All players compete at a different level. Some more skilled, some less skilled.
Lol who are u a walkby?`

but i can say i know same like Karma said! But i wont say they are no tiers.
Cause i just played this games when they came out and i was little boy like 6 or 8 so i made no looking after tiers or something i didn t know.
But there ever was is and will be the thing of Blocking combo blocking hitting blocking get the hit, and also there will be ever a defference between the caracters!
Like u ment tiers i believe.
But i wont say tiers to it, i say a dahlsim have to be a very low tier how i understood but a guile or mrbisions pre man have not best cards.
or zangief for me just can loose against a blanka .
what u wanna do with That hollywood man against da chineese superhero form mortalkombat ;) (dunno the names at moment)

But u can figth and kickass in way enemy wont think, and he will be confused till end of figth, but still a znagif can't win blanka ;P


So tiers doesn't exist they are a just a invention of phantasies to excuse da beat m ruler for loose his game ;P

Thats why i ever play da lowest tier J/K



Edited By Weidi on May 13 2003 at 11:22

[pip99]

at the end of the day when it comes down 2 this game......
LAG OWNS........

Oh for the love of god...

SSJKarma: Look, if the characters were perfectly equal, then they would NEVER have to be tweaked, right?? But because they are tweaked to make them more "even," you can't rationally say that tiers don't exist.

Yes... "skills" have a lot to do with whether one person beats the other. But just try to think with a rational mind for one moment without trying to exclaim every single sentence...

Take the best Ryu fighter in the game and pit them against the best wolverine player in the game. If the Wolverine hosts, there's a good chance the Ryu user will still win. If they Ryu user hosts, Wolverine won't stand a chance. Why? Because no matter what the wolverine user can do, the ryu can just use projectiles to break every last move they have. BBX, drill claw, berserker slash, slide claw, regeneration... etc. Nothing will ever work.

Take another group, pit the evil ryu user against the best chun li user. Chun li won't stand a chance. Why? Wow.. she can super jump and triple jump. Ever consider the air super that freezes your character? ALL of chun li's supers can be cancelled by hadoukens. And best of all, she has NO long range supers, making it almost impossible to hit the opponent with them.

I don't know why you're so hung up with this idea that AI vs. AI would prove that tiers don't exist... it would probably prove nothing more then why human opponents can always do better then the AI.

Tiers exist in every game, this one is no exception. Zing knows it, Tarkan knows it, I know it, TMyApp knows it... everyone with the ability to accept that "everything in the world is NOT perfect" can accept the fact. So please, quit wasting everyone's time with your overly exclamated sentences.

[SSJKarma]

2kwarrior: do you really think BUGS can proove that tiers exists ?
do you really thnk that that super that makes you freeze is really suppose to be in this game ?

if you said no, then you are thinking like myself !
but if you said yes to one of the two or even the two then you are not seeing this like it really is suppose to be seen !

i know a game's not perfect...
but if you had to make a fighting game, would stupidly make a very strong, agile, fast character that beats all the others ? i wouldn't do that kind of thing, so why would any game designer make a character that is playable by all that can easily vaporized all others ! what you are implying is that a higher tier is not capable EVER to defeat a very lower tier ! which is totally false !

a character in a fighting game is done while looking at the others !
if ryu is very strong, then chunli will be very fast. if wolverine is a hand-to hand character then he will have some move that will make him go pass thru the opponents attack so he can be what he is good at !

its always been like that in every single game i know !
example:
ZANGIEF against RYU
knowing all of you, you would all say that ryu is sure to be the winner while i sure knows that it is a false statement !
zangief can as easily avoid an hadoken as he is easy to pull out moves while jumping !
he has moves that can pass thru hadokens and basically all other all other long range moves.
why ? because he is made to attack and grab at close range, never have they made him there just to be beaten by all other chars !

other EXAMPLE:
SERVBOT vs RYU
again, all you'll be saying is that he is a so lower tier that he can easily be beaten by ryu anytimes... but must i remind you that servbot is fast and hard to hit !
see, they all have their counter parts against characters stronger then them which make em more balanced !

if a game has tiers, then i simpoly say that the game is very very very poorly made !

also, what i said, is that if you want to prove tiers to me, you'll have to get rid of the human variable cause it has to much random effects on the outcome !

example:
one day you have 300 person that you pull out stats of, the next day you have 300 different persons and you'll notice that your actual stats have completely changed !

also, your statistique are based on things that we all know is not equally made ! the number of people that actually use the char ! if on 200000 users, 100000 uses ryu and the rest is divised on the different 5 other chars that are in, you'll understand that you statisques are based mainly on the number iof users that actually plays a character which really doesn't make the character a better one !

its not because 100000 users uses ryu that he is better and have better tier then sentinel who has a mere 10000 users !

anyway... by now, i have already told everything i needed to say, nothing much can be said in here cause we all know that statistique says what we want them to say ! i will stop, cause for all i know, you are all so hard believed on tiers that you willl just not aknowledge somthing that goes completely against your sayings !

final word from me, it doesn't exists, cause there is no way to actually prove something like that !

[Weidi]

ZANGIEF against RYU
knowing all of you, you would all say that ryu is sure to be the winner while i sure knows that it is a false statement !
zangief can as easily avoid an hadoken as he is easy to pull out moves while jumping !
he has moves that can pass thru hadokens and basically all other all other long range moves.
why ? because he is made to attack and grab at close range, never have they made him there just to be beaten by all other chars !

rigth, but i stay that zangief wont win if he will be handled by a player and ryu too. Cause he is still to slow in my opinion. Or lets say so i speaking from Streetfigther!!! Not streetfigther 2 3 or what ever came out then!!!

[VIRUS]

Tiers...hehehe!

Sadly karma they do exist. See what happend was gamers got tired of losing to cheap players, turtles, and B.Mashers or most importantly players who have skill with characters who are considered weak. These crybabies took a "S" load of their time to come with a system of excuses based on the differences between characters.

I've played a whole bunch of these ppl especially on CvsSnk2 on the XboX live....and guess what I get?. Instead of a "gg" or "hey man nice, Ill get you the next game" I get "man my ratio four, tier 1 akuma should have won! you got so lucky!" or "my sagat is teir one your going to get smashed!".

Well it's not so sweet when they are defeated and are left with a size 12, tier one boot up their arse. Look tark you wanna live in fantasy then fine there are tiers but in reality if you were in front of me at an arcade machine there is nothing but you and me. No piece of paper or trek geek is gonna tell me my chracters stand less of a chance because they are in a low tier.

I grew up in a time where you went to the arcade and could see the best of the best beat on any challenge with bottom of the barrel characters. Tiers do not reflect skill or passion therefore I do agree with karma in my eyes they do not exist like I said it's a sore loser's guide to excuses.

Tiers can never measure the heart and true skill of a fighter they cannot measure when a great player will make a costly mistake. Tiers are lifeless and therefore as far as I am concerned have no importance.



Edited By VIRUS on May 14 2003 at 12:22

SSJKarma & Virus: I'm sorry but I'm NOT referring to COTA, MVC, CvsSnk2, or even the original XvsSF game. I'm referring to THIS online game that we are posting on its supporting forums. Tiers have always existed in this game... yes, with enough skill/heart you can overcome most of them, but it doesn't stop their existence

Ex 1: When Chun li was first added, for about 2 months she was a LOT slower then any of the other characters and had little/no priority. Ryu users and Wolverine users stomped Chun li like crazy and almost no one used her. People could get away with being cheap on her because she just moved too slowly. This is a fact that is undeniable.

Ex 2: When Sentinel was first released, his supers built up like crazy. Rocket punches, and sentinel beams had no rival. They just cancelled out anything you shot at them. Sentinel force could 1 hit kill your opponents even when they blocked it because it wasn't a slow/useless 1 hit attack it is now. When Sentinel Force was tweaked down and Cyclops released, he lost a very valuable move over the other characters and now had another, worse "beamer" competition. This is a fact that is undeniable.

Ex 3: When Cyclops was first released, he could pull off optic sweeps like nothing and hit you ANYWHERE on the screen in front of him (that still happens as well with hp optic blast). His optic blasts had a LOT more priority and would cancel almost anything. When he was changed, his optic sweep was greatly slowed, and his moves have less priority. This makes him a weaker character. This is a fact that is undeniable.

Yes, all of these characters could be beaten (or be made to win in Chun li's case), but it was much easier to be cheap/better players just by chosing them (or in Chun's case, to beat them). You can say "skill and heart" have everything to do with fighting, and you're about 95% true, but if Chun li still moved like a sloth, nobody would be winning against good Ryu users with her.

This game still contains these tiers and it is doubtful they will ever go away (regaurless of what's "possible" with a lot of practice).

[VIRUS]

I swear I dont look foward to anyone's responce more than your's 2000 whether here or wherever.

You see my point though...see we seem to be in two different classes of gamers you are very statistical player so in your eye's stats will make a difference. I go with my feelings more so as many time as you tell me or show me that my chances are slim...I will not listen.

So you see this debate will go on forever because we just think different. I understand where your coming from and I think you understand me as well.



Edited By VIRUS on May 14 2003 at 21:47

[shadab]

http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/anym/big.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/contrib/owen/council.gifhttp://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/ruinkai/biggrininvasion.gif :alien: :angryfire: :laugh: :buttrock:http://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/otn/blobs/blk_md_wht.gif http://smilies.crowd9.com/otn/blobs/multi.gifhttp://smilies.crowd9.com/otn/funny/bluegrab.gifhttp://smilies.networkessence.net/s/otn/blobs/ukliam2.gifhttp://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/otn/blobs/ukliam3.gifhttp://smilies.networkessence.net/s/contrib/edoom/spacecraft.gifhttp://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/edoom/very_first_smiley.gifhttp://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/monsieurboo/soucoupe.gif:baaa:

Argh...... I dont know why but every time karma posts, I seem to hate him even more and begin to think that he has never played any "vs" series game. Why? because the arguments he makes to back up his statements dont make sense when u put them up against the real games.IE: "you dont need combos to win a game"...WTF??? Go download a vid(xmvssf,mvc,mvc2,cvs2, etc...) of 2 ppl playing against each other and tell me what u see happening. U see ppl doing anywhere from 5-100 hit COMBOS(100+ in mvc2). Why? Because combos are the only effective way to deal damage. Now on to this tiers dont exist stuff that karma is talking about. Ugh.......... once again, have you ever played any of the "vs" series game inluding this one(the real one)????? Because your statements prove that you havent. This REAL game out of all the "vs" series games I think is close to being the most balanced game with MVC2 being the most unbalanced game. In xmvssf the REAL game there are tiers. Magneto,cyclops,wolvy,jugg's,ryu,ken,and storm are top tires(in my book). Why are they top tier? Because of what they can do in the game. Cyclops is top tier ebcause his super does good damage and his infinite is easy to do. Magneto is top tier because he is ungodly fast, has easy infinites(with a joystick) and can rush that #### down better then anyone else in the game. Wolvy is top tier because he also has an easy infinite and has devestating supers. Jugg's is mainly top ties because of his head crush super which can basically kill you with one super, or you can link his head crush's to kill someone. Storm is top tier because she too is very fast, supers do good damage, and her keep away game is basically unmatched in the game. Ryu and ken are top tier because they have to cool ass combo's that link into supers and once semi-easy infinites. These ppl r top tier for a reason, because they are better all around and have advantages in the game that most of the other characters in the game dont. Tiers do exist. here's another example: MVC2. Now this game has the most well known top tiers in all of the "vs" series games. IE: storm,magneto,sentinel,cable,capcom,psy,cyclops,st rider,dr.doom, and i guess spiral. Now why are they top tier? Because their abilities in the game are better all then the other characters in the game. It is very slear in that game that there are tiers. I mean put magneto up against serv-bot, who would win? Magneto of course. Storm vs roll, storm wins. Cable vs zangief, cable wins. Are you seeing a pattern to who keeps winning? Top tier, thats right. A certian group of ppl keep winning those match up's, top tier. They are top tier because they are frequently used and better over-all in the game. If you want to get educated in the way's of the "vs" series games karma, go to www.shoryuken.com, and get some knowledge about the game before making statements that dont make sense and prove that you are a moron. Now before replying to this, go watch some vids of these games and get some knowledge about them so you dont sound retarded. Seriously, go visit that site and learn all about tiers and how they DO exist. I got your back TarkanX.
ps: if there are spelling mistakes oh well, i type fast.

[shadab]

[quote:post_uid0="shadab"]http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/anym/big.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/contrib/owen/council.gifhttp://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/ruinkai/biggrininvasion.gif <!--emo&:alien: :angryfire: :laugh: :buttrock:http://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/otn/blobs/blk_md_wht.gif http://smilies.crowd9.com/otn/blobs/multi.gifhttp://smilies.crowd9.com/otn/funny/bluegrab.gifhttp://smilies.networkessence.net/s/otn/blobs/ukliam2.gifhttp://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/otn/blobs/ukliam3.gifhttp://smilies.networkessence.net/s/contrib/edoom/spacecraft.gif

shadab: Congratulations dumass... you're my first banned #### of the month.

Darkvirus: I didn't read that response until now... but I used to be a lot of the "other" oppinion (yours), until lag went way down and it became almost impossible to win without hosting since your "respawn" (or so to speak) time went way the hell down, giving a huge advantage to hosters on fast connections. When that is dealt with, tiers won't matter much... but until it is dealt with, tiers will reign fairly supreme in fights of near equal abilities.

xmvsf: Please, PLEASE put some structure in your posts. I end up skipping over them because I can't find my place as it all runs together without paragraphs or at least some "returns" to seperate different lines/sections of thought.