U.s. policy of "striking first"

If you're planning on replying, first, read my replys on this topic before debating (http://nferno666.sytes.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15390) cause I'm not about to take another hour or two to "prove" my point.

I'm asking you [the person reading this], what's your oppinion on the subject? Should the US be allowed to run rampant with this power of policing the world? Is the corruption/abuse of this power worth the positive effects?

*Note: This is not just about Iraq... this is about all the transgressions the US has caused other nations/nationalities of people and the ones it's doing right now.



Edited By 2000warrior on Jan. 26 2003 at 17:02

[Scorponok]

When you say "allowed", what do you mean? What are we going to do to stop it :biggrin:

The US should really stop getting itself into other peoples business. Some major things that would really affect the world, like a re-run of Hitler in WWII, would be an exception. The more the US gets involved in foreign affairs, the more it wears its military out.. plus we earn that really good reputation we have with all these other countries :biggrin:

[G_GUNDAM]

yo scorp. i gotta agree with ya. the USA is always in anothers country's affairs. i see it like this. we should stop doing this because some of those same countries dont wanna help us. :angryfire:

[Nantuko Joe]

I'm all for it. 9/11 showed us that if we don't strike first, we'll be the ones being hit. And we only meddle in the affairs of other countries when their actions would threaten the US or our allies.

[blossom]

I'm all for it. 9/11 showed us that if we don't strike first, we'll be the ones being hit. And we only meddle in the affairs of other countries when their actions would threaten the US or our allies.
i agree with Joe maybe we should strike first.
if not we run the risk of being attacked and loosing some of our friends and family members to an attack that could have been prevented.

[SBYRD5]

2000warrior.....thank you for making an intelligent topic.

[bloodpack]

i cant blame the US from becoming [b:post_uid8]WAR FREAKS[/b:post_uid8] since what happened to your country :plain:
but i think Bush should also consider other options like peace negotiations

Bush simply wants the US to "personally" inspect Iraq if they're hiding weapons of mass destructions

some speculations say that the [b:post_uid8]true hidden agenda[/b:post_uid8] for this is because you want to control Iraq's rich oil deposits

personally, i think your country (US) has no every right to do this

you self-proclaimed yourselves as INTERNATIONAL POLICE and bypassing the agreement of the UN nations

if Bush would start the first strike on Iraq, many country would greatly be affected especially my country
why?

as a Filipino, many of my countrymen leave for other countries(like the middle east) to seek other source of income (working abroad)
if this happens, many would suffer ECONOMICALLY!!!

i cant blame other people (nations) if they want to bomb you!
take for example my country (Philippines)...

long before, US and Philippines made a US base agreement
you guys settled in my country for almost 30 years (i think)
this results to prostitution, AIDS infliction of many Filipina plus you AMERICANS contaminated my country with hazarduos radioactice chemicals!!!! :angry:

many children sufferred from the effects of this
and right my country is still negotiating to your country to clean your waste here but what did you guys reply??? I NEED EVIDENCE TO PROVE ITS HAZARDOUS!!!

THAT'S BULL$HIT!!!

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>THAT'S WHY I CANT BLAME OTHER PPL (nations) IF THEY PLAN TO BOMB YOU AGAIN</span>

you Americans are culpable for many sufferings of other people

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>im not being a racist, i too also wants peace in this planet</span>

[color=red:post_uid8]you cannot correct a fault by another fault[/color:post_uid8]

war is not the answer

[i:post_uid8]***AMEN***[/i:post_uid8] :buttrock:

[~Daiten_shen~]

us is just trieng to get oil as alwas

oil wil be gone in +- 20jears
and befor when the us went "helping" a little country full of oil next to irak so simple that the us can have the price of oil cheaper in that country then any other so when there is oil the us helps
but in kosovo there is no oil and of course the us did'nt help up to the european country's to do it.

so i think amerika should shut up coze she says no massive destruction weapons
anb who has nuclear bombs ready to trow??? the us
as first victim japan
so the us has toes weapons and the others can't obvius that the us or triyng tho have the most weapons of mass destruction so that probably reign over the world


so now to first strike and the heck with bush not amerika coze i am not a racist only your president is a piece of....... and...... :angryfire:

[coolplayer2K2]

so ur saying ur from kosovo (kosova)

[~Daiten_shen~]

no i live in belgium and i am portuguese

[G_GUNDAM]

I used to have this belief.

some countries attack places with a lot of civilians. my belief was to nuke them all. if bin laden hit the twin towers, then drop the nuclear bomb on their country.

but no i dont think like that. but i still say that the USA is too soft in dealing with terrorest.

Just a reminder (so people don't get off track too soon), this is about past "injusticies" as well as current ones, as bloodpack so well showed us.

Don't just focus on Iraq/the war with terrorism...

Remember the benefits of ending the Japanese-Russo conflict, and the tragedies of the Philipine occupation.

Edit: More replys then votes? Some people in indecision or w00t? :biggrin:



Edited By 2000warrior on Jan. 27 2003 at 12:52

[DA_VIPA]

war is not the answer!! and im not american nor live ther but i beleive that the americans should strike 1st be4 iraq gets u
and the result of this war will backlash onto the allied countries that are located near iraq

[Nantuko Joe]

Anyone who thinks the US is in there because of oil doesn't have the slightest clue of what's going on. We first went into the Middle East during Operation: Desert STORM because Iraq invaded to try and take the oil for themselves. We are over there right now because we have an agreement that states that Iraq MUST let weapons inspectors into his country to make sure he's not hiding powerful weapons. We found out that he is. We discovered 11 empty warhead casings for chemical weapons. If the warheads are empty, where are the chemicals? Saddam is obviously hiding them from us, so he can plan to attack us. We have every right in the world to be over there right now. We're not there because of oil. We're not there because we're bullies. We're there because we want to protect the rest of the FREE world from a psycho leader named Saddam Hussein.

[coolplayer2K2]

heres a question

WHY DOES USA THINK THEIR TOTALLY THE BEST COUNTRY ON EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nantuko Joe]

heres a question

WHY DOES USA THINK THEIR TOTALLY THE BEST COUNTRY ON EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because we are. We have freedoms that other countries don't have. Overall, we're the best country in the world. We may not have the BEST economy, the BEST government, the BEST anything. But overall, we're the best. We take the time and get involved with important matters that could change the history of the world as we know it, and try and stop ruthless leaders from taking over the world. And what do we get? A bunch of kids on a XMvsSF forum who THINK they know what's going on in the world who get their information either from TV or their idiot parents coming here saying that the US should mind its own business, and defending Iraq, and such like this.

[coolplayer2K2]

sure then y do like 100 ppl get killed everyday

[Nantuko Joe]

sure then y do like 100 ppl get killed everyday
How do we kill 100 ppl every day?

[Scorponok]

sure then y do like 100 ppl get killed everyday
100 people get killed every day? Be more specific. More than a hundred people get killed every day.. nothing new.

[Nantuko Joe]

What the hell are you two talking about?

[Scorponok]

What the hell are you two talking about?
Trying to figure out what the heck coolplayer's point is

[SolidSnake76]

coolplayer, what u said aint smart.

then y do like 100 ppl get killed everyday

-natural disasters
-disease
-convicts in another country on a killing spree.

are u saying its america fault that AIDS kills pple in africa? that a typhoon killed 300 pple in india? a avalance in the himalays or the swiss alps killed over 150 pple? a mad man in china obtains a AK-47 and kills 75 pple in hong kong? is that what ur saying?

[bloodpack]

ha! [b:post_uid13]nantuko![/b:post_uid13]
its you who dont have the slightest idea what your country's been doing to other countries!!!

you know what make other contries pissed about yours?
its your SELF RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOUR!!!
you americans always think that you're on the top of the game!!!

you dont care about nothing to other peoples welfare!!!
you americans always have HIDDEN AGENDAS!!!
you dont help for FREEE!!!
there's always something in return!!! :angry:

about Iraq taking ownership of oil deposits of other countries... WRONG!!!
they dont need to bcoz they have their own!!!

and what did you say about you americans being the [b:post_uid13]best?![/b:post_uid13]
HA! thats a clear demonstration that you are all pompous, highfalutin ppl who thinks youre the only sons of God!!!

im not defending Iraq or Afghan
im speaking on behalf of my people (philippines)

its true you americans saved us from spanish occupation in the 18th to 19th century
but what in return???
you colonized us!!!

see what i mean?
you dont help for FREE!!!
there's always something in return!!! :angryfire:

[Nantuko Joe]

bloodpack: oh, so the US doesn't help anyone for free, we don't care about other ppls' welfare?

We rescued the remaining Jews from those Nazi bastards, and did we have any "hidden agendas?" No. Did we do it for free? Yes. Did we ask them for anything in return? No. Sounds kind of selfless to me.

We went into Vietnam to stop the communists from overruning South Vietnam. Did we do it for free? Yes. Did we ask South Vietnam for anything in return? No. Did we have any "hidden agendas?" Nothing that the rest of the world didn't know about (we wanted to get rid of Communism). Sounds kind of selfless to me. Same thing with Korea, and look at them: they've got one of the best economies in the world.

On Iraq: Actually, we launched Desert STORM to get Iraq OUT OF Kuwait/Saudi Arabia (one of those.)

And they wanted their own oil sources to be the ONLY sources in the middle east...that's why they set the oil fields on fire when we kicked their asses out of there.

[SolidSnake76]

america isnt the best in everything. joe. bloodpack.

i believe japan is the world leader in computer electronics and technology. besides, america is aint entirely free. infact, i dont think any country is.

Oh hell no... no ####### racist comments in here.



Edited By 2000warrior on Feb. 01 2003 at 16:23

[Scorponok]

you dont care about nothing to other peoples welfare!!!
Double negative.. learn some English you Filipino. (Heh, I have Filipino blood too) So much stuff to read and answer after coming back from school in one day.

[bloodpack]

if i dunno how to speak english, i wouldnt be here... :biggrin:

NANTUKO: tell me if you know our history about american colonization in my country...
i knew it!
no offense, but i think your DBZ/GT fantasies have clouded your view about reality :biggrin:

the only reason why america helps, so that in the future they have a debt of gratitude to take back...

btw, my father was a philcagv veteran (PHILIPPINE CIVIC ACTION GROUP IN VIETNAM)

he knows better than any of you kids do...

[SSJKarma]

nantuko: you live in USA right ?
then why aren't you knowing your history ?

* VIETNAM *
it was a war against RUSSIA !
you had the SOUTH or north i can't really remember...
the russian had the opposite place !
all that ####### war started cause YOU (US) STATED...
US:"if you don't intevene then we won't either"
RUSSIA:"that's fine with us"
but russia broked the treaty by giving weapons to their part of the country, which you (US) decided to do the same with yours ! which ened by the GREAT war called VIETNAM !

FREE... i doubt it, you sacrificed how many lives just to make RUSSIA cry ?

now...
no, hidden agenda's
still you forgot abour the COLD-WAR which was between you and the RUSSIAN again !
who got more BOMBS then the other ?
the US, which i doubt you have all deleted because of that #### called HUMANITY !

it has been proven a lot in history by all your acts !
you even BETRAYED us CANADIAN !
what was it called again ?
during WWII, NORMANDY (that's in french)
you sent 45,000 canadian to face certain death because you knew it was a suicide mission and still you didn't want to lose your remaining troops so you sent our force to get massacred for you !

so if that is not SELFFISH then i am god himself !
now, stop bragging about how your country is GOOD in everything, cause i actually think your the worst country of them all !

and that's also true that AMERICANS always try to have the world at their services because your in AFFAIRS with ALL country that have a little interesting things like OIL and other natural ressources !

come on, i beg of you, give me some other SUPPOSED to be GOOD for other counrty that you actually SUPPOSED to have done for them not for you !

[bloodpack]

i supposed youre talking to nantuko? ???

[iTALY]

I'm all for it. 9/11 showed us that if we don't strike first, we'll be the ones being hit. And we only meddle in the affairs of other countries when their actions would threaten the US or our allies.
i agree with Joe maybe we should strike first.
if not we run the risk of being attacked and loosing some of our friends and family members to an attack that could have been prevented.
and what about the people living in the other country's?? they are thinking the exact same thing as you guys, we should attack first before they attack.....

[DA_VIPA]

sadam and his organisation have 2 go down and fast a war is unavoidable but it must take place where there are no civilians or it ruins the 'just war' theory no innocent civilians should be killed if usa takes over iraq which they probably would if they actually go 2 war then the ppl in iraq will hate the americans more than they ever had be4 and the war wil never end. But will america just go 2 war with iraq a few years from now it will be a new 'threat' from another country with a few weapons more than the usa this situation is totally fu,cked up 2 be honest with u all i dont want another war but we cant let another hitler take over...err this is very unsettling :angry:

[Nantuko Joe]

I'm all for it. 9/11 showed us that if we don't strike first, we'll be the ones being hit. And we only meddle in the affairs of other countries when their actions would threaten the US or our allies.
i agree with Joe maybe we should strike first.
if not we run the risk of being attacked and loosing some of our friends and family members to an attack that could have been prevented.
and what about the people living in the other country's?? they are thinking the exact same thing as you guys, we should attack first before they attack.....
Because they attacked us first, and without ANY provocation. Therefore we went in and kicked their ass. But 9/11 showed us that if we don't attack first, we'll be hit again. We NEVER go in and blow up a country for no apparent reason. Therefore, unless they majorly piss us off, they don't have to worry. Iraq has majorly pissed us off. therefore, they've got to worry.

And unless they pull off another suicide bombing in America, they can't hit us.

[Nantuko Joe]

nantuko: you live in USA right ?
then why aren't you knowing your history ?

* VIETNAM *
it was a war against RUSSIA !
you had the SOUTH or north i can't really remember...
the russian had the opposite place !
all that ####### war started cause YOU (US) STATED...
US:"if you don't intevene then we won't either"
RUSSIA:"that's fine with us"
but russia broked the treaty by giving weapons to their part of the country, which you (US) decided to do the same with yours ! which ened by the GREAT war called VIETNAM !

FREE... i doubt it, you sacrificed how many lives just to make RUSSIA cry ?

now...
no, hidden agenda's
still you forgot abour the COLD-WAR which was between you and the RUSSIAN again !
who got more BOMBS then the other ?
the US, which i doubt you have all deleted because of that #### called HUMANITY !

it has been proven a lot in history by all your acts !
you even BETRAYED us CANADIAN !
what was it called again ?
during WWII, NORMANDY (that's in french)
you sent 45,000 canadian to face certain death because you knew it was a suicide mission and still you didn't want to lose your remaining troops so you sent our force to get massacred for you !

so if that is not SELFFISH then i am god himself !
now, stop bragging about how your country is GOOD in everything, cause i actually think your the worst country of them all !

and that's also true that AMERICANS always try to have the world at their services because your in AFFAIRS with ALL country that have a little interesting things like OIL and other natural ressources !

come on, i beg of you, give me some other SUPPOSED to be GOOD for other counrty that you actually SUPPOSED to have done for them not for you !
[color=green]Sorry for the double-post, but it was necessary.

Actually, you moron, the RUSSIANS started it when they supplied weapons to North Vietnam to help them overthrow the democratic South Vietnam. The US went in to retaliate, to protect a democratic country. The US never started the war, you twit.

and when we fought in Vietnam, we had NO HIDDEN agendas. The ENTIRE WORLD was aware of the Cold War. The ENTIRE WORLD was aware that we were in an arms race. It's not a "hidden agenda" if the rest of the world knows about it.

AND ARE YOU A FRIGGING MORON? THE UNITED STATES ARMY WAS IN NORMANDY TOO, YOU FRIGGING ASSCLOWN!

And of course, you're right. The US is the WORST country of them all. Because, you know, EVERYONE knows that we kill our own people testing weapons. Because EVERYONE KNOWS that we have governmental racism and discrimination. Because EVERYONE KNOWS that we are not free. You seriously ARE a moron, and should get yer ######## straight before you EVER participate in another political debate again.

[SSJKarma]

nantuko: you threaten me ?

go suck the dick of your ####### GOVERNMENT and start learning your history a little !
VIETNAM: yeah you didn't started it yeah, but you sure ended it without evenletting the ####### vietnam do his own things !

you and russia weren't even suppose to be in there but your ####### governement decided not to let the russian go ! but guess what the russian said too, that YOU WERE the ones that started it up ! for me there is no differences, BOTH of you shouldn't have done anything to "SUPOSEDLY" help them ! you caused a lot of innocent so does have the russian but do you really think your government care ?

sorry to bring you back into reality... but your government is far from perfection !
don't have any HIDDEN AGENDA'S !?!
don't make me laugh, are you working for the governement or something ?
that's what i thought...
how can you know there are none if you don't work and the president or even the SECRETARY OF DEFENSE doesn't even tell you anything !

be realistick nantuko all country have their hidden agenda and UNITED STATES doesn't do any exception !
if you knew they had hidden AGENDA'S would they still be hidden, think before saying stupidities like that !

and yeah, i had 95% in history when i learned it and yeah in normandy you 45,000 CANADIAN on the front to protect the US ARMY who was suppose to debark there too... you know how this ended (TOTAL SUICIDE) yeah, some US got killed, but you sended 3/4 of that same army that debarked there on a suicide mission. and how did your governement replyed to that situation...

US:"we're so sorry for what hapenned if we knew we wouldn't have made that attack"
but they simply said that and never did anything back for us !
even today's were suppose to be your allies and how do you treat us ?
like we were nothing !

sorry, but i dislike that kind of acting and you know your country is doing it !
i understand that you take for your country, i admit that my country is far from perfection ! but you just talk your country was the best country of them, all and you never made mistakles or you never will do in the future sorry but that ####### war is probably the worst stupidity your country can do !

[Scorponok]

sadam and his organisation have 2 go down and fast a war is unavoidable but it must take place where there are no civilians or it ruins the 'just war' theory no innocent civilians should be killed
Must take place in a place where there are no civilians? How pathetic. It might've at least sounded better if you would've put, "It would be better for not many civilians to die," but that still sounds stupid. You don't "arrange" war. "Just war" theory?

[Nantuko Joe]

Karma, how the fcuk was I threatening you, you paranoid son of a biotch? And learn to read my posts correctly: yer misinterpreting EVERYTHING I'm saying.

1.) Yeah, we were just gonna sit back on our asses and WATCH Russian communists overrun a free democratic nation? Are you mad? If you were the president at that time instead of JFK, you're saying you'd just let Communists overrun a Democratic nation? And we DID let Vietnam do its own thing after the war was over...the DEMOCRATIC Vietnam, not the COMMUNIST Vietnam.

2.) I never said America was PERFECT. I actually said that America was NOT perfect. Get yer ######## straight, you dumbass

3.) I never said America DOESN'T have hidden agendas. What I said was that America DIDN'T have hidden agendas DURING THE VIETNAM ERA! It helps if you actually READ my posts before submitting half-ass replies that make no sense, genious.

4.) Yes, we apologized. But what did you expect us to do for you? Raise them from the dead? The japanese bombed us, and we bombed them, and we're friends now. There's no more hostility between us anymore.

5.) Yeah...a war to oust a psycho dictator leader with nukes and biological and chemical weapons is "the worst stupidity my country could do." I strongly suggest you pull yourself out of the debate until one of the following happens:
1 - You pick up a book on US history...and read it
2 - You read posts before you reply to them, so I don't have to correct dumbass mistakes

By the way, do you happen to listen to Rage Against the Machine? Anti Flag? Just wondering...maybe THAT'S the reason for your hatred of the US and your total disregard for the facts...

[SSJKarma]

diregard of the facts ?

see how stupid you were talking in the other thread about those nukes !

no i'm not listening to any musics !
MUSICS is MUSICS nothing more, it doesn't say a single thing about life !

facts, you want facts...
VIETNAM : YOU vs RUSSIA both have been saying the other started it, so who helped who ? no, the US only wanted that DEMOCRATIC stays in place just to KEEP their ####### ADVANTAGE over the russian empire !

now, your denying this fact ?
that's exactly what i was saying !
US always put their nose in all WORLD's affair !
if they could have kept their nose for themselves then those ####### wars like VIETNAM wouldn't have been that big ! no, your governement wants to control TERROSIMS in the WHOLE WORLD which makes the crisis way bigger then their suppose to be !

after that you wonder why everyone wants to bomb you !
let me give you the answer to that simple question...
because you don't keep your ####### laws for yourself... you always try to apply them in countrys that doesn't even belong to you !

its like that UN that supposedly control TERRORIST attacks all over the world !
if you didn't have been knowing it already, its you that putted that damn thing up ! not any other counrtys !

all i'm saying is that if US would have always been keeping their own country not everyone at the same time, a lot of wars could have been a lot less bigger !

[bloodpack]

SSJkarma said..."the US always keep their noses to other nations affair"

true....

US was too busy looking in the outside world, meddling other ppls affair THAT they forgot to watch their own turf

the result?...

one fatal mistake of being TOO CONFIDENT (like saying being the best among others) resulted the death of many ppl including my own countrymen working in WTC ....

GOLDEN RULE: dont be too over confident, foolishness can kill :buttrock:

[Nantuko Joe]

diregard of the facts ?
see how stupid you were talking in the other thread about those nukes!

no i'm not listening to any musics !
MUSICS is MUSICS nothing more, it doesn't say a single thing about life !

facts, you want facts...

VIETNAM : YOU vs RUSSIA both have been saying the other started it, so who helped who ? no, the US only wanted that DEMOCRATIC stays in place just to KEEP their ####### ADVANTAGE over the russian empire !
now, your denying this fact ?
that's exactly what i was saying !
US always put their nose in all WORLD's affair !
if they could have kept their nose for themselves then those ####### wars like VIETNAM wouldn't have been that big ! no, your governement wants to control TERROSIMS in the WHOLE WORLD which makes the crisis way bigger then their suppose to be !
after that you wonder why everyone wants to bomb you !
let me give you the answer to that simple question...
because you don't keep your ####### laws for yourself... you always try to apply them in countrys that doesn't even belong to you !
its like that UN that supposedly control TERRORIST attacks all over the world !

if you didn't have been knowing it already, its you that putted that damn thing up ! not any other counrtys !

all i'm saying is that if US would have always been keeping their own country not everyone at the same time, a lot of wars could have been a lot less bigger !

First off, it's a FACT that the Russians started up the Vietnam War. They gave the North weapons so the communists could overrun the South. We went in to save South Vietnam. This was not just as small as Russia vs USA, this was USA versus Communism. Ever heard of the domino theory? Therefore, we did NOT want the Democracy of the South Vietnam to stay in power just so we could keep our advantage over the Russians. We wanted the SOuth Vietnam to not be slaughtered so we can stop COMMUNISM. not just the Russians, but COMMUNISM.

And once again, you have to look at the long-term effects? Or do you have that little insight?

If South Vietnam fell to communism, all surrounding nations would fall soon thereafter. This ENTIRE THING was not "not our business," because it dealt with the growing threat of COmmunism. If we hadn't stopped Communism then and there, it would have conquored South Vietnam and all surrounding areas. Again, see DOMINO THEORY.

And once again: Terroroists from the mideast want to bomb us because they hate our freedom. Not because we butt into other people's business. When "other peoples business" consists of overthrowing free democratic nations, and invading other countries for resources, than it's NOT "other peoples business," it's the WORLD'S business.

SSJkarma said..."the US always keep their noses to other nations affair"
true....
US was too busy looking in the outside world, meddling other ppls affair THAT they forgot to watch their own turf
the result?...
one fatal mistake of being TOO CONFIDENT (like saying being the best among others) resulted the death of many ppl including my own countrymen working in WTC ....

What the hell are you talking about? When 9/11 occurred, we were NOT meddling in anyone's affairs. We were NOT being "too confident" (what the hell is that supposed to mean anyway.) We just did not expect a group of fcuking afghanis to hijack our planes and use them to blow up buildings.

dont be too over confident, foolishness can kill

I don't know where this "over confidence" thing is coming from, but this makes better sense than your quote:

Golden Rule: We HAVE to get rid of Saddam, because a psycho fascist leader with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons can kill.

[bloodpack]

oh boy, i love this debate
better than any stupid kiddy stuffs :biggrin:
makes utter sense (besides its relevant) :thumbsup:

[DA_VIPA]

scorponok u dont know the 'just war' theory? go find info on it then reply

[bloodpack]

[quote:post_uid8="Nantuko Joe"][color=green:post_uid8]...we were NOT meddling in anyone's affairs. We were NOT being "too confident" (what the hell is that supposed to mean anyway.) We just did not expect a group of fcuking afghanis to hijack our planes and use them to blow up buildings.[/color:post_uid8][/quote:post_uid8]
ye right, you're Bush's personal bodyguard, you know his whereabouts every single day :biggrin:

[quote:post_uid8][color=green:post_uid8]I don't know where this "over confidence" thing is coming from...[/color:post_uid8][/quote:post_uid8]

you said it yourself, US is the best country
what do you call that?
inferiority complex?!

[Nantuko Joe]

Saying "The US is the best country" is not a statement of overconfidence. I doubt you ppl know what that word really means.

overconfidence
\O"ver*con"fi*dence\, n. 1) Excessive confidence; too great reliance or trust: 2) total certainty or greater certainty that circumstances warrant [syn: certitude, cocksureness]

Now, as far as you saying that "overconfidence" is what caused 9/11 does not make sense.

"We have no idea that they were gonna attack us" is not overconfidence. And example of what IS overconfidence is:

"Sure, they SAY they're gonna attack us, but they're really not. They don't have the balls."

THAT is overconfidence. And THAT was never said, because we had no forewarning.

And once again, I said WERE not meddling, DID NOT have hidden agendas. I'M STILL TALKING ABOUT VIETNAM YOU FOOL! BUSH WASN'T PRESIDENT DURING VIETNAM, SO WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ME BEING HIS BODYGUARD! READ THE POST FIRST!!!

[Scorponok]

scorponok u dont know the 'just war' theory? go find info on it then reply
I read it, you must have misinterpereted me. You make it sound like in war, civilians must NOT be killed. That is just stupid. I'm not saying the army should go out of their way and start massacring, but in war people get hurt, duh.. It's not some event that people have where they all abide by these rules that were layed out. Even if the US did go by this... "just war" theory, what would Iraq do? I'm sure they would do the same :biggrin: weird how we all are having our own little debates.



Edited By Scorponok on Jan. 30 2003 at 18:11

[bloodpack]

oh please Nantuko, dont call me fool
lets make this debate clean
using bad words would only prove you americans are war freaks besides, i might say bad words to you too in return
and might result to flaming=ban
you dont want that to happen, do you?

stick to the topic...

[SSJKarma]

nantuko: who are you to know what would've happenned in the future of things ?

maybe if you didn't interven, mayber the RUSSIAN would have made the country a better place to live then what YOUR GOVERMENT made it looks like !

DEMOCRATIE better then COMMUNISM ?
i doubt that... why ?
because COMMUNISM is one extremity and CAPITALISM is at the other side. and you know DEMOCRATY is total bullpoop ! since when has the governement ever asked what we wanted.

your country is a democraty... my butt !
if your president declare WARS to another counrty and the PEOPLE say no to it, you all know your president will still go in war anyway disregarding the PEOPLES opinions ! you call democraty !

communism was something bad, i agree, but at least it worked the right way and RUSSIA was strong, now they got flipINGLY almost reduced to nothing as a country just cause YOU (US) thought communism was bad !

OVER CONFIDENT... (USA IS THE STRONGEST COUNRTY OF THEM ALL) it is writen in all magasine, and other media's ! that's what made you OVER-CONFIDENT ! your president is always thinking, COME ON, TREATH US, WE WILL HAVE TO DESTROY YOU AFTER THAT AND WE HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO DO SO ! if that's not called OVER-CONFIDENCE then i am a MARTIAN !

your country is always bragging on how it can easily vaporised another counrty, in all those wars you made, you haven't even changed a bit about that OVER-CONFIDENCE ! that's what i was talking about !

again, your country not doing anything bad...
are you working for the president or something, do you have access to EVERY SINGLE PROJECT FILES ? if no then stop saying your country is all good cause that is only your opinion which is based on the fact your living there ! i maybe not living in the US, i maybe not knowing what happens there, but at least i don't say such stupidies like you do !

i live in canada, do you see me bragging about how we are the best country around the globe, do you see me bragging how we must "HELP" the other countries by entering in WAR ? do you see me say such things ?

no, i don't cause i know my counrty is far from being the best of them all !
DEMOCRATY = bullpoop (i know it, you know it, everyone knows it)
DICTATURE = bullpoop, but we all know it works !
COMMUNISM = same as above !

so what's the middle of all that huh ?
nothing proves that COMMUNISM would have done HORRIBLE things to the world, just like nothing proves DEMOCRATY is all good ! EVENTS in life are always movings like butterflyes, never going straight !

you think thing would have gotten wrong, but they actually could have been way better. yes you couldn't know those planes would have hit those towers, but how could you know if SADDAM is really going to do anything ? after all, it has been like that for 10 years as YOURSELF said already ! so why would it be different this time ? neither do i have proof that he will not do anything with those "SUPPOSED BOMBS" !

so how could be acting like that ?
because you "THINK" as in "OPINIONS" that you must do that for the safety of everyone !
that's all opinions nothing more, now i'll stop this ####### retard debate as it is not based on anything ! and we have been getting off topic for about 3 pages !

i'm still thinking your a little biased in your statements as you always seems to bring OPINIONS in front, not facts !

[bloodpack]

<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>[b:post_uid10][color=red:post_uid10]THE US's HIDDEN AGENDA[/color:post_uid10][/b:post_uid10]</span>

[i:post_uid10]**bringing out the crystal ball, uttering...hummm,hummmm[/i:post_uid10] :biggrin:

in the coming centuries or so, there will be great shortage of oil deposits in the planet, more countries will struggle to obtain every last drop of this precious source of energy

other countries will study other source of energy
while others will compete in discovering new oil supplies

[i:post_uid10]**reality check[/i:post_uid10]

now lets go back to reality...
its obvious that oil is the most used source of energy in this planet
although we have solar, geothermal, hydroelectric, wind as sources of energy, oil is that MOST used...

fact is OIL came from earth's natural process of converting dead animal/plants/organisms remains to black liquid substance
and it took millions of years for this process
there will come a time that there will be oil shortage

Middle East (including Iraq) is the planets' rich producer/supplier of this liquid
they are the richest country, and naturally, they need to protect their wealth like building arms

US needs their vengeance for the 9/11 tragedy (of course)but dont you think their using this as an EXCUSE to take control of this "wealth"?!

heh, thats what i thought...

PLUS

if you gonna check every country on this planet, you will find US military bases on almost every country

you say this is to ensure SAFETY and protect smaller nations from the threats of terrorism
logically, this is a SLY way of expanding your empire!!!

small nations is at great risk by the military bases you have established, i pray someday youll not have a tyrant ruler
bcoz when this happens, you can easily take dominance in the entire planet!

now that the US/Iraq war looms on the horizon, countries with your military bases (like mine) is at risk of enemy attack and WE ARE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE !!!

Filipino working in the Middle East might lose their jobs/livelihood or even worst...LIVES!!!

wake up Nantuko
war is not a joke, your president better think 99 times
if ppl die, you can no longer revive them!!!
this is not a DBZ movie and there is no dragon balls!!!
not even your BALLS can help them!!!

IM AGAINST WAR!!! :angryfire:

[Yasback]

must this bias discussion go on?

the dominant proportion of you people are americans, thus for war!

there's no point in continuing.. i think i know the outcome of this discussion in this forum which is umm unbalanced.. you have not considered the "target" audience..

anyway, do whatever you will.. seeya

[DA_VIPA]

scoroponok sadam hussein is allegedly holding biolgical weapons if he sends them into cities like new york, london many innocent ppl will die for no reason only ppl who want 2 fight in the war should die not ppl that just want 2 get on woth their lives..

[DarkOmega]

I think buash is jsut after the oil but 9/11 showed us they arent afraid of the states and that they will attack so i realy dont have an opion but CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG ???

[Selvin]

I think buash is jsut after the oil but 9/11 showed us they arent afraid of the states and that they will attack so i realy dont have an opion but CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG ???
Can you blame him for being after the oil, if sometime does happen, the price for oil will jump through the roof messing up the econemy and screwing the whole world over.

[DarkOmega]

Can you blame him for being after the oil, if sometime does happen, the price for oil will jump through the roof messing up the econemy and screwing the whole world over.
He Has oil reseerves in texas that are ful of oil but he is too cheap to use them its his excuse so he wants to attack iraq

[Selvin]

He Has oil reseerves in texas that are ful of oil but he is too cheap to use them its his excuse so he wants to attack iraq
You're joking right?? :shocked: Isn't 15% of the world's oil in Iraq.

[DarkOmega]

i think it is but he has oil saved up in texas for emergancyds and he has so much it would last the states 10 years

[Selvin]

i think it is but he has oil saved up in texas for emergancyds and he has so much it would last the states 10 years
And where did you find out about this information?? ???

[DarkOmega]

It was on CNN in late novermeber so ya i know a little about what is goin on

[Scorponok]

US is not a democracy..

[Selvin]

US is not a democracy..
Then why do people vote for their president??

Not enough time to look over past conversation...

Selvin: It's a republic

[Nantuko Joe]

US is not a democracy..
What the hell are you and 2000warrior talking about? The US is a democracy. Right...the US isn't a democracy...and Mexico is a dictatorship...and Britain is fascist...

Seriously, you should at least know THAT much that US is democracy.

[SSJKarma]

DEMOCRATY:
the public has the power, the public decide what happens to their country by having VOTES and the majority wins on the lesser number !

knowing that is the real definition of democraty !
let me ask you those questions !
- do you vote for the best president... (yes, democraty after all)
- do the president ask his peoples opinion before saying anything like WE GOES IN WAR ? (no he don't)
- is he asking your opinion when he decides to raise the taxes around your houses ? (no he don't)
- is he asking your opinion when he takes the money in treasury and by himself a prostitute (example, no he don't)
- when the secretary of defense does some hidden research on a MASS DESTRUCTION WEAPON, does he ask you your permission ? (no he don't)

is it really democraty ?
no !
why ?
because democraty is POWER TO THE PUBLIC which you obviously don't have at all !
we don't have it either... the only thing you got poweer on, is when you put a president up there, but once he's there he can what he wants and you don't have a damn word to say about it !

so no, it's not democraty, no i don't know what that is, but it is clearly not democraty !

[Nantuko Joe]

First off, learn how to spell, dude. What the hell is "democraty?" It's "democracy."

Democracy: noun
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

That's taken right from a dictionary. We vote for all levels of government, and for the MOST part, the ppl have the power. It does have a few aspects of a Republic, but we're really a democracy. Now, you read that and tell me that the US isn't a democracy.

[bloodpack]

[quote:post_uid9="Nantuko Joe"][color=green:post_uid9]Seriously, you should at least know THAT much that US is democracy.[/color:post_uid9][/quote:post_uid9]
question...

is waging war on a certain country part of americans democracy?!

[Selvin]

Okay, democracy is: Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

Now, going to war is a choice made by the government the people voted in. If you're not legally an adult you can't vote so I guess you have you right to moan and groan about America, but realisticly, do you wanna find out if Iraq has weapons and it may be to late??

[Irrelevant]

What of the fiasco of the last election? I know people who still insist it was completely rigged.

Anyway, don't you think it's a bit hypocrytical of the US to make demands about Iraq's WoMDs when they still have nuclear missiles?

[Selvin]

No because America wouldn't use them to blackmail the world.

[Squall87]

What of the fiasco of the last election? I know people who still insist it was completely rigged.

Anyway, don't you think it's a bit hypocrytical of the US to make demands about Iraq's WoMDs when they still have nuclear missiles?
Yes, and that is coming from somone who lives in the state that botched the last election.

Yes, I agree that Gore would put us in a worse postion.

Ok, don't flame me these are just my oppionions, and some theorys.

First off, the FBI whistleblowing papers. The MI FBI field office wanted to investigate and attack, way before 9/11 from a suspected-terrorist. (Who now is caught, after attempting to blow up a plane.) The FBI says no, that there isn't enough info. erm...HELLO!? Can someone please tell me why there isn't enough info on someone wanting to smack a plane into a building?!

As for Vietnam, I'd avoid the draft and go to jail for it. That's me though. Vietnam wasn't Americas war, sure we were stopping communism. But why waste a American boys life just for that? Why not supply the Vietnameh with assault rifles and say, "Here you go, have fun." and let them go for it? Anyway, on a lighter note of that. it was NORTH VIETNAM that started the War. not RUSSIA or USA. NORTH VIETNAM! get that in your head. North Vietnam wanted to unify the South with them as a Communist Nation. Ho Chi Minna (sp?) wanted that to happen, so then Vietnam was free. That's why we went to war. But I still say we shoulda only supplyed weapons. Because after Nixon pulled us out. What happens? Oh, South Vietnam goes under. Which was what kids? Prolonged by US involvement.

Democracy, the People of the People for the People, that cannot be taken away. Then why the heck do we not get our say on War Policys and other crap? Just because we elect officals to politcal seats, does NOT mean we cannot say, "Hey, that's a bad idea!" When we do, many people think we are unpatriotic. *sigh* How wrogn they are, and how much right, the USA propaganda machine is brainwashing people.

The US steps on many poeples toes. And Joe, I know your going to come in and start trying to flame me and say Im unpatriotic. I'll just ignore that. I'm patriotic, I just don't support some vaules that Bush is doing. What about Japan? We nuke them, then were friends with them, yet they never get a memoral for Hiroshima or Nangaski.

Iraq, meh no comment. if the US wants to nuke them, nuke them, but then don't send me over there to have to pump the nuked oil. I personally will be moving to a nother country as I hit 18 to avoid this.

Bloodpack does have a point where I'm oging ot have ot find and quote on. The US doesn't help for free Nantuko. Sure you say we helped the Jewish. But they get racism here, because we are worryed about what!? MONEY!? :shocked: can someone please tell me how poeple seeking refuge are going to screw up our economy?

Yeah, Joe we did help them. for free. *GASP* *applauds* because Hitler was a mad man. So is IRAQ, I'll admit that. But if we strike first, many other countrys won't like that. That's why I say we wait untill we are in a bit better positon with the other countrys.

Many countrys don't like Americans Joe, have you ever visted them? Remember back in the 80s where *I forget the country* held 5 US hostages untill what's his name after Nixon stepped down from the Presidental seat two years later?

That's why I don't say out right that I am an American. Because many poeple will think I'm a pompanus Jack-ass. (Which, I desgress, only a few people in the US I know are.) and not the open-minded person that I am.

Oh, and I just wanna know. Did Bush actually have info on 9/11? Last I heard he did...hmm....

You may now proceed to flame me, on which I will ignore. :biggrin:

[Squall87]

No because America wouldn't use them to blackmail the world.
Sorry for the double reply, but I just have to reply to this.

Oh what about this.

"Support our war on Terror, or we will list your as simpathizers. and then Nuke you."


We want IRAQ to reduce Nukes, that's good. Once we do that, we should start limiting our Nukes, due to the START accords.

[Scorponok]

US is not a true democracy. It's a Republic, a Democratic Republic if that makes you feel any better. Look at some of the ancient Greek city-states, those were democracies. If you have not noticed yet, we elect representatives in this country to represent us. We do not have the final authority in deciding most things. The country is too large to be able to run a real Democracy

[Squall87]

That's true, but I still ask the question. "Why?" doesn't the Elected officals listen to those of us that write, or e-mail them our comments? Yes, there is many letters and E-mails I'm sure, but meh. if there is a opposing side, then meh, shouldn't that hint them in that some people don't want us to do that?

[Scorponok]

That's true, but I still ask the question. "Why?" doesn't the Elected officals listen to those of us that write, or e-mail them our comments? Yes, there is many letters and E-mails I'm sure, but meh. if there is a opposing side, then meh, shouldn't that hint them in that some people don't want us to do that?
Rephrase that, and fix some of your grammar too...

[Squall87]

Ok, sorry. My English writing skills suck. :biggrin:

I said that your quote about the US having people represent us is true. BUT! why don't they listen to, Those of us that write/e-mail them and say that there choice is "a bad idea"? Wouldn't that give them the idea that some people think the idea is wrong, and that they should go back to the drawing board? No. They simply ignore us and go on stepping on other country's toes. So point is, the US is only, a quater-democratic.

[Scorponok]

Oh, I see your question now. 'Cuz they're stupid.

[Squall87]

Exactly, what most everyone here is saying. My point is, in the politcal scale, we are communist. Because the people that oppose the idea don't get thier say.

and Nantuko, what about Mr. "There ought to be limits to freedom." Bush that said that quote when he saw an anti-him site, due to many poeple laughing at how right it was? He wants to take our First Admendment and shove it, so everyone becomes mindless drones. and Homeland security is just Bush's "Big Brother" plan in disguise.

Then agian, these ideas are from a 15-year-old Honor American that comes from a screwed up State of old people. So go ahead and flame me. I could care less.

[Scorponok]

Communist isn't properly put into practice in these supposed communist countries.

For the Republic/Democracy debate...
*Pulls out an encyclopedia*

"DEMOCRACY is a form of government, a way of life, and a goal or ideal. The term also refers to a country that has a democratic form of government. The word democracy means rule by the people. Abraham Lincoln described such self-government as "government of the people, by the people, for the people.
The ciitizens of a democracy take part in goverment either directly or indireectly. In a direct, or pure democracy, the people meet in one place to make the laws for their community. Such democracy was practiced in Athens, and still exists today in the form of the New England town meeting.
Most modern democracy is representative democracy. In large communityes--cities, states, provinces, or countries--it is impossible for all the people to meet as a group. Instead, they elect a certain number of their fellow citizens to represent them in making decisions about laws and other matters that affect the people. An assembly of representatives may be called a council, a legislature, a parliament, or a congress. Goverment by the people through their freely elected representaives is sometimes called republican government."

"REPUBLIC is the form of government in which the citizens elect representative to manage the government. The people give their elected represtentatives authority to maintain opower for specific terms of offic. The word republic may also refer to a country that has a republican form of government."

I hope that's enough to convince most of you... (for the others I'm affraid there's no hope left :biggrin: ).

And now for the actual debate going on...

Solidsnake76: I don't want to see you making a single ####### racist comment in here again. You hear me? For what you say it's probably true... but that's not what this topic's about, and I detest the whole aspect of pitting one race against the other (####### social darwainists).

SSJKarma: Uh... you might consider throughing in a few facts to make your arguements more convincing (ie: saying the US has "hidden agendas" over and over doesn't cut it).

Nantuko Joe: Are you one of those "50%" of the american population that believes that Iraqis hijacked the planes in 9/11? 'cause there wern't any.

As for Russians starting the Vietnam War.. sure, they were supplying weapons to North Vietnam. Are you so naive to thinnk the US wasn't doing the same thing? You remember the Cuban missle crisis? It was all about the USSR putting missles right in the US' "back door", when all the while, it was perfectly fine for the US to have missles in Turkey (right in the USSR's "backdoor"). Communism was/is a facist/dictorial regime... And by no means am I trying to defend communist those brutal dictors' actions.

But Russians were just as affraid of a nuclear holocaust as the US was. It wasn't just the USSR's fault the Cold War broke out. It was the US and the USSR's faults. The US "built the bomb" first, and of course, after WWII, was ready to spearhead an assault on Communism. However, after the Communists started building bombs to counter the US', what does the US do? Build more bombs of course! And that certainly would get them out of the mess... right? Wrong. The USSR just built theirs in response to US massive bomb buildings. Somewhere along the line, some jackass got the idea to start shipping bombs to other countries and building missle silo's where one country could nail the other... and so the other follows... and everyone's scared poopless the other's gonna nuke the hell out of them... so everyone just kept at a stalemate until one country caved in.

As far as "hidden agenda's" go... well I'm pretty shabby on my Cold War history, so I'll just state a few things here that I know from other memories...
- The Philipines. While the US is busy siding with the rebels down in Cuba, why not free the poor oppressed people of the Philipines as well? As a matter of fact, why not give the local admiral in Hong Kong the word to mobilize for an assault on the Philipines before the war even breaks out? And after the US is done, why not brutally rule the Philipines and put the rebels in reconcentration camps? Thus totally hypocracizing the whole proclaimed reason the US went to war in Cuba in the first place. Not like the US wanted an "open door" to China or anything... :biggrin:
- WWI. Sinking British liners and killing a some American passengers too?! And while in a state of war?! Truely an admirable cause for "freeing Europe" of the German threat. Oh wait, the trade seemed to be suffering at the time as well... since the US wanted to maintain it's neutrality and trade with both Germany and England, it decided to not get involved right away. However, since England had the stronger navy, it's blockade of Germany proved more effective then the ones around England... and a bit of English propaganda... the US sides with Germany. Not much to say there but keepin' the trade is vital. It goes, your economy goes... your next election goes.
- WWII. Ever heard of Stalin? Not like the US or Russia ever got extremly freindly during the war (ie: after Normandy, it was a race to get to Berlin first in order to hault the communist threat). I'm not saying the US did a bad thing... Hitler needed to be put in his place... killing 6 million Jews, and what was it again? 7 million+ Russians? On a side note, the US bombing on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, which killed off roughly 130,000 civilians is incomparable to the attack on Pearl Harbor, which didn't even amount to 5,000. A state of war and state of peace doesn't change the amount of people who get slaughtered purposelessly.
- Civil War. Free the slaves? Right... if you read the emancipation proclamation, you'd be careful to note that Loncoln didn't mention #### about freeing slaves that were in states still belonging to the Union. Only slaves from the Confederacy were freed... thus staving off the menacing threat of British interfearence. But I'm not saying any more on this war...

*cough* that seems to be about it...
Just 1 more thing before I quit typin'...

If you check out Iraq's actual military capabilities instead of just assuming since Bush says they've got ####, they pose a threat to the US... you'll dicover Iraq has NO aiforce. Iraq has NO navy. Iraq has NO long-range deploying capabilities. Saddam has NO intention of attacking the US. No... this isn't "overconfidense", it's logic. Remember, Saddam let the UN inspectors into Iraq, right?? The US didn't just shoot their way in... he bought himself quite some time, and with that time, he's been turning world oppinion against the US (ie: get the UN not to back the US in an Iraqi invasion).

However, if you want to get real technical and say "he's got weapons he could use, and tests on his own people". Well, I never said he didn't use chemical/biological weapons on his own people... because he does. Does that mean he'll use them on the US? Not really... He can push his own people around, but if he starts using them on US citizens, then he's really fliped because the US will attack. If he uses them against his neighboring countries, the US will attack. He knows this, and therefor, hasn't used them on other countries. And all because of why? He's trying to stay in power. However, since Bush is pressing his way into war, Saddam will be removed from power, right? And he knows he can't win, right? So what's to stop him from burning his oil feilds and using those weapons while he goes down? No reason to leave them for the US.

The reality of this war is, the US has Saddam cornered. He doesn't have any capability to launch his ####, but he's got plenty of it, and if the US keeps pushing on him, there's no telling who he'll set it lose on. Wouldn't the US look bad if he decided to send them over to the Palistine terrorist orgs. in Isreal... Some terrorist catchers the US would look like then...

Anyways, I'm done talking to Nantuko_Joe at this point 2000-Joe convo ends here...

For the rest of you, might I pose a few questions for those who are so sure the US should strike first at Iraq?

As mentioned above, preasuring Saddam might make him let lose his baddies as a form of "going all out". Whereas if the US doesn't attack, he's more likely to leave the US alone (when was the last time you heard headlines that "Iraq is invading the US" :biggrin: ).

Another question comes to mind when considering one world "super-power" that polices the world the way the US is doing. What if other countrys try to emulate what the US is doing and wage their own "wars on terrorism" or "war on communism", or something of the sort... It doesn't seem to be going too well in Isreal. And if India and Pakistan all of a sudden decided one or the other posed a threat to each other, so they should "strike first"... And I doubt South Korea or Japan really want to put the preasure on North Korea right now (which btw is more powerful/dangerous then Saddam). But for some reason that brutal dictator with his 1 million in arms must be less of a threat to the US... :biggrin:

And my last statement here is about the nations the US is controling. I know a lot of you live in the US, and would probably think it very abnormal to have a Chinese base in your town. But that's what the US does around the world. It exerts it's authority around the world and in this sense "coerces" others to comply. I know a lot of you think the US is past that "age of imperialism" type of extortion... But why do you think the US is able to get away with invading Iraq? If the UN doesn't support the US, do you really think that'll be enough to stop it? Honestly, imagine if Ireland was the nation invading Iraq. Without UN support... it couldn't do ####. But since nations give up their autonomy for a smaller military budget, the US gets its way around things.. regaurdless of who's right.

Anyways, that's all I'm saying... hope it wasn't too long for catching up on 8 pages of debating :biggrin:



Edited By 2000warrior on Feb. 01 2003 at 17:58

[Nantuko Joe]

Are you one of those "50%" of the american population that believes that Iraqis hijacked the planes in 9/11? 'cause there wern't any.

No sh!it

As for Russians starting the Vietnam War.. sure, they were supplying weapons to North Vietnam. Are you so naive to thinnk the US wasn't doing the same thing? You remember the Cuban missle crisis? It was all about the USSR putting missles right in the US' "back door", when all the while, it was perfectly fine for the US to have missles in Turkey (right in the USSR's "backdoor"). Communism was/is a facist/dictorial regime... And by no means am I trying to defend communist those brutal dictors' actions.

We did not begin supplying South Vietnam with weapons until we actually sent our troops. not our advisors, but our troops.

And don't get started on the Cuban crisis. We were in the middle of the Cold War. Tensions were high with the USSR, and Cuba hated us. Then we discover that they were HIDING nuclear silos in Cuba. Lemme see...a communist country that we were having a tension between is HIDING nuclear silos 20 miles away from the US in a country that hated us. Hmmm...

But Russians were just as affraid of a nuclear holocaust as the US was. It wasn't just the USSR's fault the Cold War broke out. It was the US and the USSR's faults. The US "built the bomb" first, and of course, after WWII, was ready to spearhead an assault on Communism. However, after the Communists started building bombs to counter the US', what does the US do? Build more bombs of course! And that certainly would get them out of the mess... right? Wrong. The USSR just built theirs in response to US massive bomb buildings. Somewhere along the line, some jackass got the idea to start shipping bombs to other countries and building missle silo's where one country could nail the other... and so the other follows... and everyone's scared poopless the other's gonna nuke the hell out of them... so everyone just kept at a stalemate until one country caved in.

We made the first bomb. Not to be outdone by the US, the USSR said "Hey, they've got some pretty strong sh!it, stronger than any of our weapons" and not only created their A-Bomb, but they invented the H-bomb too. Then the US said "Hey, they've got some pretty strong sh!it, stronger than our A-bomb" and built something stronger, and so on...

And the shipping of the nukes to other countries wasn't due to USSR's direct government, I don't think. When they finally did an inventory of their nukes, there was something like 16 missing or something. It was an inside job. And USSR put their nukes in Cuba before we put our nukes in Turkey.

- The Philipines. While the US is busy siding with the rebels down in Cuba, why not free the poor oppressed people of the Philipines as well? As a matter of fact, why not give the local admiral in Hong Kong the word to mobilize for an assault on the Philipines before the war even breaks out? And after the US is done, why not brutally rule the Philipines and put the rebels in reconcentration camps? Thus totally hypocracizing the whole proclaimed reason the US went to war in Cuba in the first place. Not like the US wanted an "open door" to China or anything...

I have no knowledge of the phillipines and any US involvement, so I'll just take yer word for it

WWI. Sinking British liners and killing a some American passengers too?! And while in a state of war?! Truely an admirable cause for "freeing Europe" of the German threat. Oh wait, the trade seemed to be suffering at the time as well... since the US wanted to maintain it's neutrality and trade with both Germany and England, it decided to not get involved right away. However, since England had the stronger navy, it's blockade of Germany proved more effective then the ones around England... and a bit of English propaganda... the US sides with Germany. Not much to say there but keepin' the trade is vital. It goes, your economy goes... your next election goes.

Actually, Germany sunk the Lusitania as it crossed the Atlantic carrying food and supplies for Britain...THAT'S why (i believe) we entered the war.

WWII. Ever heard of Stalin? Not like the US or Russia ever got extremly freindly during the war (ie: after Normandy, it was a race to get to Berlin first in order to hault the communist threat). I'm not saying the US did a bad thing... Hitler needed to be put in his place... killing 6 million Jews, and what was it again? 7 million+ Russians? On a side note, the US bombing on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, which killed off roughly 130,000 civilians is incomparable to the attack on Pearl Harbor, which didn't even amount to 5,000. A state of war and state of peace doesn't change the amount of people who get slaughtered purposelessly.

Actually, i believe it was 6 million Jews, and 6 million combined of Russians, gypsies, and gays. And there was no race to get to Berlin to stop a "communist threat." If I'm not mistaken, some of the US forces crossed a bridge somewhere in Germany, i believe, saw the remains of a group of Russians...and celebrated their victories with them and helped tend to their wounded. Tensions between the USSR and the US didn't begin until about a year after the war was over.

And the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was 100% unprovoked. The first a-bomb we hit them with was a bit overkill, i'll admit, but we gave them a chance to surrender, and told them that if they didn't, we'd a-bomb them again. They refused to surrender. They knew the consequences of their actions before we even bombed them. If they had just surrendered when we told them to, Nagasaki would be in one piece, and the casualties woud only be around 70 thousand.

Civil War. Free the slaves? Right... if you read the emancipation proclamation, you'd be careful to note that Loncoln didn't mention #### about freeing slaves that were in states still belonging to the Union. Only slaves from the Confederacy were freed... thus staving off the menacing threat of British interfearence. But I'm not saying any more on this war...

Um...actually, there were NO slaves in the Union...they were ALL indentured servants. As in: if they worked for their "emplyers," they'd get paid, have a place to live with their families, and if they worked for them long enough, they were given a % ownership of their employer's crops. They were fighting mainly to free the slaves. ALL blacks in the north were free (unless you think indentured servitude is slavery). Yes, they were still discriminated against, but they were free.

If you check out Iraq's actual military capabilities instead of just assuming since Bush says they've got ####, they pose a threat to the US... you'll dicover Iraq has NO aiforce. Iraq has NO navy. Iraq has NO long-range deploying capabilities. Saddam has NO intention of attacking the US. No... this isn't "overconfidense", it's logic. Remember, Saddam let the UN inspectors into Iraq, right?? The US didn't just shoot their way in... he bought himself quite some time, and with that time, he's been turning world oppinion against the US (ie: get the UN not to back the US in an Iraqi invasion).
However, if you want to get real technical and say "he's got weapons he could use, and tests on his own people". Well, I never said he didn't use chemical/biological weapons on his own people... because he does. Does that mean he'll use them on the US? Not really... He can push his own people around, but if he starts using them on US citizens, then he's really fliped because the US will attack. If he uses them against his neighboring countries, the US will attack. He knows this, and therefor, hasn't used them on other countries. And all because of why? He's trying to stay in power. However, since Bush is pressing his way into war, Saddam will be removed from power, right? And he knows he can't win, right? So what's to stop him from burning his oil feilds and using those weapons while he goes down? No reason to leave them for the US.
The reality of this war is, the US has Saddam cornered. He doesn't have any capability to launch his ####, but he's got plenty of it, and if the US keeps pushing on him, there's no telling who he'll set it lose on. Wouldn't the US look bad if he decided to send them over to the Palistine terrorist orgs. in Isreal... Some terrorist catchers the US would look like then...

Iraq most likely has hidden airfields around the country, and even if not, he most likely has underground silos and such. Plus, Iraq has allies: ppl that Saddam could supply his weapons to so THEY can attack US forces in other countries. If Saddam is so harmless, then why has he kicked the UN out of the country each time they have either stumbled onto or come close to finding or found evidence pointing towards him owning bio-chem weapons? Think about that.

About the cold war... yeah, everything you said is 100% true. Just 1 big ####hole neither side wanted to be in.

WWI: Lusitania was the British liner carrying US citizens (128) and was destroyed as were a lot of other British liners on their coasts. US got mad... after another one gets shot down (the Sussex), and due to American protests.. Germany issues the Sussex pledge (not to shot merchant ships without proper warning). Note, German violations of international laws of the seas were equally shared by allied nations (mostly on the part by Britain, but who controls the news back to America now?). I think Britain publicly announced a while back that they knew about German intentions to sink the Lucitania before it happenend... (they wanted the US in the war). Not certain about that... could just be something else.

The US didn't enter the war on that basis alone however. Although there were protestors against the war, there was a considerable amount of British propaganda (if I failed to say it enough times :biggrin: ). Belgium being overrun didn't help the German case either... or that Zimmerman Telegraph.

Civil War: I thought indentured servents ceased to exist by 1860 ??? . Wern't they the people who paid British merchants/middle class by "servitude" for a free ride over to the new world in the 1500's and 1600's?

As for slavery, I suggest you refresh your memory on it. When the Confederacy seceeded, Missisouri, West Virginia, Maryland, and Kentucky all stayed in the Union (all of which were slave states).

WWII: Don't make me get out my encyclopedia again... rarely do allied troops know of the battles between their commading officers. The US was helping Russia because they were allied at the time, and needed Russia's help to take down Hitler... after that was all said and done, it was time to get down to the real war. Look at an old map sometime and note where the USSR had control and where it didn't... it's sphere of influence stops right at Berlin. That wasn't really a bad secondary cause for fighting the war (and really was low priority until it was obvious that Hitler was finished). BTW, while I'm at it, that was another reason the US used the a-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki instead of a direct invasion. Bulstering US might on the Russian's back door was intended to scare them out of US vs. USSR confrentation... and so they stepped up their efforts to build a bomb themselves. Anyways... I type too much.

On Iraq: Yeah, underground silos and airfields you have no proof of... and yet doesn't the US have all these satilites looking down on the Earth right now? How long has the US been running spy planes over his territory? And yet not so much as a rumor of these underground silos? I think you're giving the man way too much credit. And who are these allies of which you speak? I don't see any nations boldly stepping out and supporting Saddam's cause right now. If you're reffering to terrorists, he's probably gonna do just that because the US is acting so aggressivly.

And lastly... Saddam's not "so harmless", he's just harmless to the US because he's way the hell over there and has no long range capabilitys of nailing any of the US's great trading buddies. Thus the entire reason the US is willing to stop this terrorist supplier and not the one in North Korea.



Edited By 2000warrior on Feb. 01 2003 at 22:24

[bloodpack]

ok, let's just say (assume) that Iraq possess these biological CRAP
waging war on Iraq would only provoke them in using these stuffs
instead of letting them be...

THIS DEBATE GETS BETTER AND BETTER
BTW, WHO'S ON SIDE A AND WHO'S ON SIDE B
I MEAN WHO'S NANTUKO'S TAG ON THIS DEBATE??? :biggrin:

[Yasback]

stopped posting? ???

stopped posting? ???
I guess Nantuko Joe must have givin up and/or just gotten too fed up with me... :biggrin:

Anyways, if/when he does post here again, I'll make sure the make my final post about this whole Iraq thing, and discontinue the Iraq debate in this topic...

[SBYRD5]

I had no idea that members of this forum disliked the U.S. I agree with this.....Bush is the ideal ignorant president.Even though I'm an american.....we are a power hungery nation that states we want peace but our armies soil there hands to achive it....we amricans will probally repeat the same mistake we made with....Japan.....