A theoretical conversation - Very interesting aim discussion

[Dan Hibiki]

I had an AIM discussion with Roll, and it is quite interesting. Haters stay out. Came up quite spontaneously, too.

Saikyostudent=Dan Hibiki
SayuriFAngel=Roll

SayuriFAngel: Dan!
SayuriFAngel: *
SayuriFAngel: *hugs*
Saikyostudent: Roll!
Saikyostudent: *hugs back*
Saikyostudent: What's up?
SayuriFAngel: Nothing.
SayuriFAngel: ^-^
SayuriFAngel: How about you?
Saikyostudent: Nothing either.
Saikyostudent: Nothing seems like a good thing :-)
SayuriFAngel: Perhaps.
Saikyostudent: If nothing is happening, then nothing bad is happening either.
SayuriFAngel: But then nothing good is happening either.
Saikyostudent: I'll take neutrality over something bad happening.
Saikyostudent: Just the way I am.
SayuriFAngel: I suppose.
SayuriFAngel: But,
SayuriFAngel: if nothing happens,
SayuriFAngel: then nothing can happen.
SayuriFAngel: If nothing bad comes to be,
SayuriFAngel: what can come to be good?
SayuriFAngel: If something wasn't sweet,
SayuriFAngel: would it be bitter?
SayuriFAngel: Or would it be gone altogether?
Saikyostudent: You need something to compare to if you wish to say something is good or bad.
Saikyostudent: I've had enough bad experiences to appreciate those times that nothing is happening.
SayuriFAngel: But if there is nothing to compare to,
SayuriFAngel: then there is no way to tell the difference.
Saikyostudent: True.
SayuriFAngel: And it's better to feel something, anything at all,
SayuriFAngel: then to be empty.
SayuriFAngel: than**
Saikyostudent: One's own experiences keeps the person from being empty when nothing is happening. Looking at past events in retrospect, thinking about the present, or the future more than satisfies a base need to feel anything.
Saikyostudent: To think of nothing is a depressing idea.
Saikyostudent: Humans need to have experiences.
Saikyostudent: Without it, how do people define themselves as individuals?
Saikyostudent: Or, how do humans group themselves together if not by one's own past experiences and what is learned from them?
SayuriFAngel: Humans group themselves according to their feelings.
SayuriFAngel: And according to how "alone" they feel.
Saikyostudent: You can't have feelings without experiences. You can't feel alone unless you have an experience that taught you it.
SayuriFAngel: How do you know?
SayuriFAngel: You can't say that.
SayuriFAngel: You've never felt anything in that type of situation.
Saikyostudent: Exactly. And thusly, I have no emotion to match it.
Saikyostudent: It is a paradox that proves itself correct.
Saikyostudent: All of human's machinations come back to the perpetuation of experiences and what is learned from these experiences.
Saikyostudent: Without them, humanity is truly emptiness.
SayuriFAngel: But,
SayuriFAngel: what of the moment when they do not have any experience to speak of?
SayuriFAngel: If you cannot say anything about that,
SayuriFAngel: then wouldn't it be easier for you to just say that it would be impossible for that to be true?
Saikyostudent: It is impossible, because from the first instant that any degree of thought is possible, the brain is experiencing something.
SayuriFAngel: But,
SayuriFAngel: how do you know?
SayuriFAngel: And what of that first moment,
SayuriFAngel: that first bit of experience
SayuriFAngel: where you don't know what to think?
SayuriFAngel: You don't gain any thought,
SayuriFAngel: you don't have any stored.
SayuriFAngel: You're just there,
SayuriFAngel: in existance,
SayuriFAngel: and waiting for something to tell you the truth.
Saikyostudent: Instinct. Instinct dictates those first thoughts. We make what we want of the others after that.
SayuriFAngel: But you can't have an instinct if you don't know anything at all.
Saikyostudent: Instincts are based on genetics. A very, very minor inherited memory.
SayuriFAngel: Gomen.
SayuriFAngel: ^-^;
Saikyostudent: Why are you apologising?
SayuriFAngel: Because I was disconnected during the conversation.
Saikyostudent: Oh. I didn't notice.
Saikyostudent: What were you saying before you were disconnected?
SayuriFAngel: SayuriFAngel: But you can't have an instinct until it activates.
SayuriFAngel: and it takes a previous action for a reaction to take place; which is needed for an activation of an instinct.
Saikyostudent: Indeed.
SayuriFAngel: In that split second when that action happens,
SayuriFAngel: and you are just realizing it,
SayuriFAngel: and for the first time,
SayuriFAngel: you know you're alive;
SayuriFAngel: what can you feel, know, do, or think?
SayuriFAngel: either everything at once,
SayuriFAngel: or nothing at all.
SayuriFAngel: Which is the same thing; believe me.
Saikyostudent: You do not recogznie you are alive in that first instant. That concept is rather complicated, and takes an older person to understand truly.
SayuriFAngel: Really?
SayuriFAngel: Then why do I remember every instance of life?
SayuriFAngel: And why can I understand it well enough to keep it with me forever?
Saikyostudent: You remember everything, but you did not KNOW you were alive conceptually from the beginning.
SayuriFAngel: Didn't I?
SayuriFAngel: I can remember every feeling, every thought..
SayuriFAngel: and it's not something to be proud of either.
Saikyostudent: No, it isn't... but you see, with every thought is an emotion.
SayuriFAngel: exactly.
Saikyostudent: How can you have an opinion to nothing, with no thought previous?
SayuriFAngel: Simple.
SayuriFAngel: You'd have to get them all at once.
SayuriFAngel: Otherwise,
SayuriFAngel: how could you get your own definition of them?
SayuriFAngel: I'd like to think of it as a personal Big Bang in the mind.
SayuriFAngel: For now at least.
Saikyostudent: As you exist, and collect more experiences, you can create an opinion on the feelings that you have.
Saikyostudent: You can't quantify an experience as soon as you first feel it.
Saikyostudent: You can't immediately know how you feel.
SayuriFAngel: That's true.
SayuriFAngel: But you can't just base everything on opinions.
SayuriFAngel: Emotions and opinions are two entirely different things.
SayuriFAngel: Placing those two in combination is chaos.
SayuriFAngel: Keeping them together is murder.
Saikyostudent: There are actually those who like sadness. Paradoxical, is it not? They came to that opinion on it. It is not just the feeling, the emotion you have, but your own opinion you draw to it that truly gives it a definition.
SayuriFAngel: But,
SayuriFAngel: if you can't create your own opinion,
SayuriFAngel: then how can you tell what you like or don't like?
SayuriFAngel: Not many people have the ability to form opinions.
SayuriFAngel: At least not truthful ones.
SayuriFAngel: Because of that,
SayuriFAngel: they end up searching for the rest of their lives for answers that were always there.
SayuriFAngel: If you just feel things out, you won't get very far,
SayuriFAngel: but if you try to go only with opinions to form your beliefs and feelings,
SayuriFAngel: then you'll only end in disaster.
SayuriFAngel: If you try and mix them both together,
SayuriFAngel: you will surely hurt the world around you,
SayuriFAngel: and if you do nothing at all,
SayuriFAngel: you will die.
Saikyostudent: How else is there to quantify things except for opinions? It is what humanity is. A group of opinions that dictate actions, thought, and preference is what humanity is.
SayuriFAngel: That is not humanity.
SayuriFAngel: That is just logic.
SayuriFAngel: Logic and what we call common sense.
Saikyostudent: Perhaps.
SayuriFAngel: Humanity is us.
SayuriFAngel: The human species surviving and living.
SayuriFAngel: The ability for us to grow in our emotions and personal strengths lies in our lives.
SayuriFAngel: And the choices you make will decide your fate.
SayuriFAngel: However,
SayuriFAngel: the choices can be made in ways that you wouldn't know ofuntil later on in life,
SayuriFAngel: or could never be understood at all.
SayuriFAngel: Somethings, as I am sure you are aware of, are not meant to be understood.
Saikyostudent: Humanity, life, thought, reason, and reaction are all complicated concepts that seem chaotic. But, look at anything that seems random or illogical, and when you look closely enough or notice the small details, a logical pattern will come to light.
SayuriFAngel: But then logic is what set this world apart.
SayuriFAngel: Logic cannot be used for all things.
SayuriFAngel: If you use logic for emotions,
SayuriFAngel: you will misinterpret a lot of the times,
SayuriFAngel: and you may even hurt your beloved.
SayuriFAngel: If you use logic for anything other than logic,
SayuriFAngel: then you will damage whatever you used it for.
Saikyostudent: A certain degree of logic is needed to properly understand them. If you dwell too much on something, then it could come out that way through misinterpretation.
SayuriFAngel: You don't need logic to understand something.
SayuriFAngel: All you need is to be alive to understand something.
Saikyostudent: It helps.
SayuriFAngel: Maybe once in a while,
SayuriFAngel: but in most cases,
SayuriFAngel: it makes things much worse.
Saikyostudent: Not necessarily.
SayuriFAngel: Oh really?
Saikyostudent: If soimebody hurts you, you will be angry.
SayuriFAngel: but does that help anyone?
Saikyostudent: You can logically reason that you are angry because that person hurt you.
Saikyostudent: Small things like that.
SayuriFAngel: But,
Saikyostudent: It needn't be a long-winded espousing of all things logical.
SayuriFAngel: what if that was not the real reason?
SayuriFAngel: What if you were just giving yourself a logical explanation that may be true, but wasn't the whole truth; one that only covered up the true reason for the anger.
Saikyostudent: Logic can only go so far. It can't understand a decision or concept that was not reached illogically.
Saikyostudent: Logic is its own boundary.
SayuriFAngel: Logic is a boundary.
SayuriFAngel: and a hold.
SayuriFAngel: a ball and chain, if you will.
SayuriFAngel: Think of this:
SayuriFAngel: Scientific logic states that magic and ghosts, and supernaturalities are all untrue and never to be real.
SayuriFAngel: At least,
Saikyostudent: A means ofunderstanding has not been reached.
SayuriFAngel: there is no way to get samples of them.
SayuriFAngel: And because of that,
SayuriFAngel: logic says:
SayuriFAngel: "They're not real".
Saikyostudent: Scientific METHOD of testing says it. Not logic.
Saikyostudent: Scientific method uses logic, but isn't all there is to it.
Saikyostudent: Like I said, it isn't understood how to quantify ghosts and such.
SayuriFAngel: So,
SayuriFAngel: why do people just use logic to say:
SayuriFAngel: "It's not real. There is a logical explanation for it." etc., etc., etc.?
Saikyostudent: Simply because they can't explain it. It's somewhat incorrect to say that unless logic completely disproves something.
Saikyostudent: If it doesn't disprove it, then it isn't illogical necessarily.
SayuriFAngel: logic states that if there's no proof,
SayuriFAngel: it's does not exist.
SayuriFAngel: But how can you give proof of it?
SayuriFAngel: You cannot.
SayuriFAngel: You cannot just give it off, like you could give water from a faucet.
SayuriFAngel: Those things cannot be proven,
SayuriFAngel: simply because they are not supposed to be.
SayuriFAngel: If they are to be understood,
SayuriFAngel: then you would have to welcome them with everything you have.
Saikyostudent: You are incorrect that logic disproves things by not proving them. It just makes it uncertain if something is true or false if it can't definitively prove or disprove it.
SayuriFAngel: Then tell me.
SayuriFAngel: What basis is there for saying it is true or not?
SayuriFAngel: People say logic,
SayuriFAngel: Scientists say proof,
SayuriFAngel: politicians just talk constantly.
Saikyostudent: It needs to be proven. But by NOT proving it, it doesn't necessarily DISPROVE it.
Saikyostudent: A complicated concept of ambiguity indeed.
SayuriFAngel: Then what can you say about it?
SayuriFAngel: Rather,
SayuriFAngel: what do you say about it?
Saikyostudent: When logic fails, opinion reigns.
Saikyostudent: Opinion dictates the thought in such a situation.
SayuriFAngel: What do you say about the thought of supernaturalities, Dan?
Saikyostudent: I believe them.
Saikyostudent: There are things that logic, at this time, can't explain, and I feel that supernaturalities fills that void quite well.
SayuriFAngel: But then.
SayuriFAngel: you call it "true" because of your opinion.
SayuriFAngel: Even though you said there was no way to say that yet.
SayuriFAngel: Which means,
SayuriFAngel: you had to go without logic.
Saikyostudent: No, I don't say it is true. I simply believe it, which does not necessarily render it true.
SayuriFAngel: to form a conclusion.
SayuriFAngel: But you made it true to yourself.
SayuriFAngel: If you believe something,
SayuriFAngel: you think it true,
SayuriFAngel: whether to a small extent or not.
SayuriFAngel: You still think it true.
Saikyostudent: As a matter of opinion, though.
Saikyostudent: Not as a matter of logic.
SayuriFAngel: but that means you cannot use logic for it,
SayuriFAngel: and in either case,
SayuriFAngel: you're still confirming it to yourself.
SayuriFAngel: What if it was not true?
SayuriFAngel: Then would your opinion change?
SayuriFAngel: Or would you go into denial??
Saikyostudent: If it is disproven, the logic of that over-rides my opinion.
SayuriFAngel: And then,
SayuriFAngel: what if it was proven to be untrue due to an instance where something happen?
SayuriFAngel: happened**
SayuriFAngel: Could the variables in the situation be called at all?
SayuriFAngel: Would they be ignored?
SayuriFAngel: Would they just be used in other ways of interpretation?
SayuriFAngel: Because of that,
SayuriFAngel: well,
SayuriFAngel: I don't need to say it anymore.
Saikyostudent: We've had a rather nice discussion on this anyways.
Saikyostudent: Quite spontaneous and interesting.



Edited By Dan Hibiki on April 17 2004 at 00:27

[azncat]

wow....i manged to read it all...... for you people who wanna learn read this chat its very educational and just by 2 people
please at least try reading it
you crazy kids wif your short attetion spans.... jeez =/

[LEESTAR77]

my eyes and my mind burn! :)
read it all.....in a word...cool!

[Saijin_Ryu]

Hmm, seem's like you two unravveled the mystery that is wassup!
very clever conversation, maybe i should post some of mine, marve|911 and Ledmonkey's group convo's....there always fun.

[SSJKarma]

well ANGEL always have a good way of saying things... too bad i'm too lazy to read it all, but i must say that just the start about the whole nothing thing is a great start in a great conversation ! :colgate:

as for the whole experience thing DAN... i am on ROLL's side on this... you don't need experience yourself to have an emotion's about it !

example... how would you feel if i placed you on a planet where you are all alone in the whole world ?

sorry but i'm sure you have an emotiuon on that, even if it didn't happenned to you ! why, because you have other emotions and those emotions will come in and make you your own emotion about it !

in my case its gonna be FEAR since i don't want to be alone in this world !
but for others its gonna be satisfaction since they have enogh of having all the attention's towards them !

in any case, past experience hapenning to any other individuals that you know of, can also make you have that emotion about a situation even tho you never lived it !

not going any further since i didn't read any further !
dang, i wish i was in that discussion of yours !

[Evil-Blanka]

Hmm, seem's like you two unravveled the mystery that is wassup!
very clever conversation, maybe i should post some of mine, marve|911 and Ledmonkey's group convo's....there always fun.
noooo the pain in my eyes it burns :angryfire: ahhhh

[pip99]

I spoke 2 roll once proper in the IRC chat er tellin stuff about previous girls and what not i remember her talking about gardenin and how she likes it 0 _o

[Elena]

Dan Hibiki
You can't have feelings without experiences. You can't feel alone unless you have an experience that taught you it.

There I disagree and agree at the same time. You can have feelings without experiences. Let's take being a baby for example. The baby will feel very happy when it is with it's mother, but as soon as it is away from it's mother then the baby will feel sad. The baby may not know what this emotion is, but the baby will still have it. This baby hasn't lived enough to have enough experiences to know what happy and sad is but the baby will still feel it. And might act on it by crying or laughing or smiling...

But, then I agree with you when you say you can't feel alone unless someone teaches you to feel alone. I agree with you because...a child who has lived with his mother at all times and never once stepped outside to view the world. Has never felt alone. Even though to us he seems alone. That child has never actually felt alone, but as soon as he stepped outside into the busy world. He feels alone, because his mother is not with him. His mother taught him that he will always be alone if she is not by him....hope you get what i'm saying...

Btw I stoped...
SayuriFAngel: You've never felt anything in that type of situation.

[vx_unicom]

Very gg dan... ???

[marvel911]

maybe i should post some of mine, marve|911 and Ledmonkey's group convo's....there always fun.
Or maybe you shouldnt..remember how dumb it was when led did that? :p

[Dan Hibiki]

Read the conversation carefully. You'll experience the sensation of the emotion, but won't know what to make of it unless you have experiences to draw on.

[SBYRD5]

*Ahem*

It would seem conversations have once again begun to pick up.

I must say the ideal of never having past experiences to build from would put you in a lack of experience that is considered ignorance by society.

My whole childhood I was a nonsocailize.....and I've had my share of rather ill experiences I wouldn't want to mention again.

Oddily, I....me SBYRD5 am most happy when I'm alone.....and feel a sense of fear when in tight spaces and large groups of people.

Some ofus would crumble at the idea of silence around ourselves and begin to pace in a panic.....and call it boredom...

When actually such a moment should be considered peace....

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>NO IGNORANCE IS THIS TOPIC PLEASE!....</span>

(Including myself.... ??? )

Hey let's get Nantuko Joe in here...this topic could really be sweets for the mind....

[SSJKarma]

Well dan, and elena... i disagree and still do, tho i'm always missing a few examples and prooves of my theories in debate, i can still give you a few ones here and there. let me start with the example of elena about this child who would go alone !

let's say i retake the very same example...
the child wants to go outside but before leaving he just IMAGINE, what it would be without his mother !
boom, he feals fear of leaving her, he has emotions withouts having experienced them, he feels alone because he wouldn'T see his mother again ! so he feels those emotions just because he thought about it !

he didn't experienced it himself, but it is like it even tho it didn't happened !

see what i mean, emotions aren't just physical they are spiritual as well. so your imagination can make you feels things without it to actually have truly hapenned ! thus giving you emotions without the need for experience, this doesn't mean it is the way it will happen when it will if it happen one day. but still you felt an emotion based on things you never experienced !

[SBYRD5]

Karma your theory can't be correct because for one to IMAGINE one must have a thought to imagine with.

To have a thought is an ideal gained from experience.

Without experience you really can't think for yourself...there for I believe you would have no personal opinion.


So without Experience....you can't do much except for breath.....but some nwborn infants need help at birth to do that.....

Once one learned how to breath I continued to breath....if I never gained the experience to learn how...I would've never been me today.

So without experience.....there would be nothing....=/ :shocked:



Edited By SBYRD5 on April 18 2004 at 08:39

[m0u5y]

lol reminds me of my convo with my friend when she tried to commit suicide lol.

[SSJKarma]

Come on SBYRD5: you knowbetter then that !

imagination is not part of your daily logic. it is more of an idea that you get, and by what you say to me is... without thought their is no emotions, then i ask you this...

if i don't think, how can you be here and loving this place ?
why did loved this game, why are so people always having emotions !

same goes for one thing !
that is my theory again...
when someone close to you die. i'm at the fatr end of the world. yet i never lived this, but i still feel bad for you because i can easily imagine the scene and that makes me have the emotions. surely i won't have the same as you, but i don't need to have lived it to know what you go thru !

so my theory is based on fact about humanity here. humanity cannot be without thought and thought is what makes you imagine situations, if you have imagination then you don't need to have lived thru things to have emotions !

last example... my friend here gived me th ebest example i can get... without emotions, there would be no war, nothing like that, as everything you do is based on an emotions.

as long as you want something... at that exact moment where you wanted something, you showed an emotion !
see, this world without emotions wouldn't be 1 thousands of millions away from this civilization !

[m0u5y]

anyone know empathy? the fact is, if a person is in touch with the socratic theory of knowledge... the fact that we know all and just need to tap into that knowledge, means we CAN immagine how the other person is feeling. put yourself in their shoes. goin off on elena: this is an essential part of social existance. if you cannot empathise, you cannot communicate. not many can, so they just do the next best thing: sympathise.
U can immagine infinite numbers of situations in your mind.
For example, i never experienced getting shot, but I can immagine the enormous amount of fear and pain. If we couldn't immagine how something is like, then we cannot experience emotions, thus fear? If we don't fear the car coming toward us, then we don't move because we never had that experience? The thing is, we have instincts and we have logic. Emotions are an evolved form of instincts which work toghether with the brain to create these different reactions. You could say its a kind of negative reinforcement you give yourself. In animals, instincts such as fear would keep the individual out of danger. For smarter animals, emotions can provide positive and negative reinforcement depending. The thing is, there are billions of explenations and contraddictions in the world. What ever take you have on a subject, there will always be someone to bring you down. Fear is inborn, love is inborn, envy is inborn. they are evolved versions of instincts, fear: survival from predators, love: survival of the species, envy: survival from competition.
One more point:
have you ever had a dream where you died? Where you fell off a cliff and hit the ground? Where you got shot? Where you did something you never had done before maybe like driving a car/stick/whatever? Did you ever then try to do it and you could? What about seeing something in a dream that you never experienced before but was exactly what happened to you later? You can argue that we have a pre-cognitive ability or you could say that... its the MAAATRIX.. or maybe that it was passed on genetically? but simply put, you cant explain everything... or anything. you can just have it make sense to you. just like eggplant pizza makes sense to me.

[Elena]

Dan Hibiki
You can't have feelings without experiences. You can't feel alone unless you have an experience that taught you it.

There I disagree and agree at the same time. You can have feelings without experiences. Let's take being a baby for example. The baby will feel very happy when it is with it's mother, but as soon as it is away from it's mother then the baby will feel sad. The baby may not know what this emotion is, but the baby will still have it. This baby hasn't lived enough to have enough experiences to know what happy and sad is but the baby will still feel it. And might act on it by crying or laughing or smiling...

But, then I agree with you when you say you can't feel alone unless someone teaches you to feel alone. I agree with you because...a child who has lived with his mother at all times and never once stepped outside to view the world. Has never felt alone. Even though to us he seems alone. That child has never actually felt alone, but as soon as he stepped outside into the busy world. He feels alone, because his mother is not with him. His mother taught him that he will always be alone if she is not by him....hope you get what i'm saying...

Btw I stoped...
SayuriFAngel: You've never felt anything in that type of situation.

Karma...I don't know if you read what I said correctly or if i stated it wrong but I said you CAN have feelings without experiences...then i disagreed when dan said you can't feel alone unless you are taught it.

[vx_unicom]

true....u can have feeling without experiences..